322. Peloton Adds Power Zone Graphs And Our Interview With Jokotifa Alaye

TCO 322 | Peloton And Grief


  • Power Zone graphs now appearing in workout history.
  • Disney+ makes its Peloton (beta) debut.
  • Android users get home screen widgets.
  • Peloton announces First-Timers Friday at PSNY.
  • The Guide adds personalized weekly plans.
  • Peloton Gym gets some tweaks.
  • Back-to-school ideas to keep kids focused.
  • Peloton is looking for a Manager of Music & Content Partnerships.
  • Jenn – What to do when an instructor upsets you.
  • Cody Rigsby announces his book tour.
  • Adrian Williams and Logan Aldridge both posted mysterious images from a recording studio.
  • Camila Ramon has tips for preventing chafing.
  • Christine D’Ercole is competing at Cycling National Championships.
  • Jess Sims is gearing up for a new season of College Gameday.
  • Tunde has been posting teases about an unnamed new project.
  • Angelo/MetPro – Is there a benefit to doing multiple (but shorter) workouts?
  • J. Watt has questions.
  • Peloton’s Extra series adds 10 classes.
  • Peloton celebrates Hip Hop 50.
  • Joslyn Thompson Rule has a new Walk+Run for U.K. Carnival.
  • Gospel Yoga classes are back.
  • DJ John Michael shared new Lanebreak levels.
  • Kristen McGee and Trevor Hall have an Ultimate Yoga Flow class.
  • Kirsten Ferguson has a new 15-minute run for beginners.
  • Logan Aldridge has new adaptive strength classes.
  • Marcel Maurer has new resistance band classes.
  • TCO Top 5.
  • There was a new apparel drop last week.
  • Birthdays – Christine D’Ercole (8/11), Rebecca Kennedy (8/13), Nicole Meline (8/17)

All this plus our interview with Jokotifa Alaye

Watch the episode here


Listen to the podcast here


Peloton Adds Power Zone Graphs And Our Interview With Jokotifa Alaye

Where to start?

Start with food prep. That’s where I want to start.

What do you want to tell me about your food prep?

We’re going to talk about your food prep.

I prep my food just like Angelo wants me to. That’s the end of the story. I have no interesting to say about that topic.

It’s definitely not the end of the story. This week got interesting. I want you all to keep in mind, this type of thing happens often at our house. It’s not always Tom. Usually, it’s his son.

I’ve mostly outgrown things like this but my son has it in spades because it’s how I was when I was that age. I was meal prepping. I tend to eat the same thing every day. That’s not what MetPro tells people to do. It’s how I utilize MetPro. That’s the choice I make. I tend to make this concoction. I make taco meat, then I pour Ragu on it and mix in cheese, and I mix it all together. It tastes like chili. That’s what I have for lunch every day. I’ll make 2 pounds of taco meat and then measure it out, and I’m done for a week and a half.

I am making it all. I have a jar of Ragu that’s half full and I have a brand new jar of Ragu. I start with the old jar of Ragu, pouring it in, and then I had to open the other one, so it was ready to go. I started pouring it in and measuring out the amount that I want, then it runs out because it was only half full, and I’m making twelve of that thing or something, then I go to grab the other one, and it was a brand new Ragu, so you got to shake that up. I go to shake it up, and I realized I had already taken the lid off of it. I’m standing in the kitchen looking like Sissy Spacek in the last scene of Carrie or the opening scene of Carrie. I looked like a crime scene. The whole kitchen is covered in Ragu. It was like half the bottle.

It wasn’t quite half because we have ginormous little cans of Ragu that’s like 44 ounces. It wasn’t half but it was a lot.

There wasn’t one article of clothing that I didn’t have Ragu on.

He’s counting the t-shirt, jeans, hoodie, and socks. The hoodie I had to take off. He couldn’t even move. It was in his goatee. It was on his head. It was everywhere. He just stood there while I undress him. I take off his hoodie and I put it straight in the washer.

My face was covered with Ragu like I had starred in some sort of fan fiction Mario Brothers porno. It was crazy town.

Moral of the story. Don’t shake the jar unless you know the jar is closed.

Or have Crystal do your food prep.

I had to do the cleanup. You left the room to go clean yourself.

I was covered in it.

I know. I have to give credit where credit is due. Brian did help clean that up.

He wasn’t in a panic. If it was him, he would have been frozen like a deer in the headlights.

I remember the first time that he spilled milk. He just stood there. We all were like, “Clean it up,” all of us. He was just standing there looking at the tidal wave of milk.

Covered in milk, coining a classic Brian-ism, “I milked myself.”

He’s still using it to this day. He just milked himself the other day. Never a dull moment in the O’Keefe household.

I feel like we got the inexplicit rating on the Apple podcast store.

We have one of those refrigerators that have pictures and you can do little sticky notes and stuff. What does Sydney do? She goes and makes a sticky note. We have a whole list of Brian-isms. She quotes, “I milked myself this morning.”

Anyway, thanks to everyone from the Patreon group that came and hang out with us on Friday. We had a Zoom call for Patreon members. That was a blast. We also released our first Clip Out bonus episode for the Patreon which is free to everybody. If you want to know what that sounds like, you can go over there and listen to the first one for free. It doesn’t cost you a thing. We don’t ask for your credit card number. Although if you want to send it to us, we’ll take it, but we’re not asking for it. There’s so much stuff coming at us and we’re trying to keep these things a little shorter. We’re still talking about things, but some of the lesser big news, we’ll be discussing over there.

Another way to look at it is we’re trying to focus on the stories that enhance your experience with the bike or the tread, etc. instead of a bunch of word vomit. We’re trying to strike a balance.

What to pray tell do you have in store for people?

We’re going to talk about what’s going on with the Power Zone. Peloton has a lot of features that are coming out. We’re going to talk about all of those. We’re also going to be talking about an interesting Now Hiring that we saw. We have a visit or a stop, if you will, from Dr. Jenn. We talk about what to do when an instructor upsets you with either something they said directly to you on a live. Maybe they said something in class that you disagreed with. We got you covered either way.

We have a bunch of stories about what’s going on with the instructors. We also have a visit from Angelo. Is there a benefit to doing multiple shorter workouts instead of one longer workout? We have a celebrity discussion and new content we’re going to go through. Also, In Case You Missed It segments plus birthdays.

Who are we talking to in this episode?

We are talking to Jokotifa. She is an amazing writer. She came across our radar when I was looking for people to write for the website. She came up and she was like, “I would love to do this, but we need people during the day and she has a very busy demanding day job.” When we went through the list of all the people who reached out, we looked into all their backgrounds for a little bit of understanding of who they were.

Credit checks and things like that. The FBI swings by to ask them some questions.

After we had the FBI review, we were looking at Jokotifa. She has a blog all about how to prepare and deal with death. It’s called Mourning Space. She’s an excellent writer, but also the subject matter itself fascinates us because you don’t see a lot of people talking about this, and she’s a huge Peloton fan. All of that brought her onto the show.

I enjoyed talking to her. Before we get to all that, shameless plugs. Don’t forget, we’re available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts. Wherever you find the podcast, you can find us. While you’re there. Be sure and follow us so you never miss an episode. Maybe leave us a review. That’s always super helpful. You can also find us on Facebook, Facebook.com/TheClipOut. While you’re there, like the page, join the group.

If you don’t have enough Clip Out in your life, you can get even more if you join our Patreon. You now get a bonus episode every week, a companion episode of all the things we didn’t have time to fit into this episode. It’ll be over there waiting for you. Also, the episodes will be ad-free. When we get them early, you get them early. There’s all that benefit for you. You can check that out at Patreon.com/TheClipOut. We have a YouTube channel where you can watch these episodes at YouTube.com/TheClipOut. Finally, we throw a lot of links at you during an episode. You can get a complete listing of those links if you join the newsletter at the newly redesigned TheClipOut.com. It’s very nice. There’s all that. Let’s dig in. Shall we?

We shall.

We have an update on the world of Power Zone stuff. You can now get performance graphs and your workout history.

I should have seen that coming after they made those pretty graphs for the rowing. The rower had all these graphs come out that were like how well you stay in your zone. That’s exactly what Power Zone is. I should have seen this coming.

We need something like this for Facebook comments, “How well did you stay in your zone?”

It would always be red.

“You made this comment? It’s none of your business, whatever you’re saying. This graph will show you how much none of your business it was.”

There are some people I could share that with. That’s for sure, but so many lovely people that I interact with.

Also true, then we can hear positive ones.

They would. What I like about this graph is that it’s rainbow-colored. I will never not like rainbows. I also like the visual of being able to see exactly how you covered your zones. There are a few of these different kinds of graphs out there. They all show up in your workout history. If you haven’t seen them yet, my understanding is not everybody has it. Also, not everybody had it last week as of yet. Please make sure that you have the latest update on any of your equipment if you are looking for this information. It should have made its way to you by now.

Do you think this is like, “Here’s a little thing we did for Power Zone,” and then move on? Do you think we’ll see more Power Zone-related tweaks get baked into the app and equipment?

It’s a good question. I think that they might be adding more. My thought process is that Team Wilpers for the first time ever is doing a Power Zone challenge, which is fascinating, given that he used to be very heavily involved in the Power Zone pack. I don’t know if he still is. I have no idea. This seems like a new version of that. For people who haven’t found their way to the Power Zone pack and maybe you’re with Team Wilpers, this is another way to get your challenge on. The reason that I think maybe we’re going to see more is because there’s more coming from Matt about this. That leads me in that direction. Who knows? It’s hard to say. Even if we do, it could be months.

A lot of people have been super excited about the ability to view different streaming platforms on their devices. It’s a setup that’s currently in beta, so not everyone has it. Not everyone has all the same things, but people started to get Disney+ on their Peloton.

I’m pretty excited about this one because I love to watch the Nature Channel shows and Tom does not.

It’s boring. I’m like, “There’s another giraffe, just over there giraffing.”

I could watch little baby animals do cute adorable things all day. I haven’t tried it yet, but I think this is something I could totally get into. Disney+ and Netflix were both the ones that I was super excited about. I’m glad both of them have shown up.

My Disney+ show lately has been Locked Up Abroad.

You mean Banged Up Abroad.

I don’t like to brag. We talked about this a few weeks ago. It’s funny how they’re all basically the same story. Yet each one is riveting in its own unique way.

If nothing else, the people telling you the story, I can’t look away. Sometimes I’m like, “Are you high right now?” I like to play that game.

Some of them, you have to wonder.

I love that show. Let’s see. I think I get bored doing my bike on that though.

I get that. Android users now have home screen widgets.

This is very exciting for Android users because iOS users got this quite a while back. It’s been several months. I say several months. I know that seems like a long time to wait for Android users. Given that, when I was an Android user, it was literally years. This is a quick turnaround.

I think they realized, especially if their whole thing now is we’re an app company that happens to have equipment sometimes if you want to go down that road, then that app needs to be fully functional on all devices. You can’t just go, “The app is just a bonus. If it works on your phone, great. If it doesn’t, whatever. It’s the bike that you really bought.” They can’t they can’t say that anymore. Even though this is very quick, based on historical measures, it’s probably still not as quick as it should be.

I would agree with that too. I will say it’s always going to be harder for Android. There are so many different packages that you have to test for and be prepared for. I also wanted to point this out because I’ve heard a lot of chatter about it. People have been reporting since this update came out that they can no longer filter on their classes, and that they are having trouble with their strive score. This is only for Android users. This was reported on Tuesday night. By Wednesday, 90% of people were saying this was resolved. Although there are still some naysayers over on the OPP.

What? Negativity on the OPP?

I know. It’s shocking. If you are one of those people and you are still experiencing issues, number one, try re-updating your phone. Number two, please reach out to Peloton customer service because that is not supposed to be the outcome of this update. It’s not what is being planned and it should not be showing up. If you’re still seeing issues with that, reach out to them, not to me. Have them help you.

The monthly email blasts from Peloton are getting a new look.

We’ve got all the new colors. We’ve got a whole new thing. Instead of being like, “Here’s your monthly overview,” they show you your monthly trends. They show how far you’ve come. I love emails like this. I love being able to see this month compared to last month. I love knowing if I hit new numbers or if I did new things. It’s cool and it’s also neat that they have a new subject line for it.

I don’t remember what it said but it’s something like, “Let’s see what you’ve been up to in the last month,” or something. It’s a little more hype and a little more getting your attention. I know that it’s been a while since we talked about Peloton changing up their marketing and rebranding everything. Clearly, this is part of that and it’s pretty cool to see. I love seeing the little things that stand out to me personally.

I also noticed that Peloton is starting to show up on influencer accounts. Now you might see a video from an influencer and they start talking about how they fit Peloton into their day. I saw one from Monet McMichael. She’s got like a million followers. I’m sure that wasn’t a cheap collaboration. It’s pretty cool that Peloton is leaning into this because it’s going to open it up to people. We were talking amongst ourselves within the writer group, and somebody said this is probably aimed toward younger people, and more diverse than just White people. I think that’s true.

There was a real vibe around Peloton with the kids today like, “Peloton is something my mom does.” They’re trying to kill that with a bat.

I agree. This is a good way to do that. We will keep an eye on these changes over time.

Peloton announced that they’re having First-Timers Fridays at PSNY.

Apparently, this started in July. We noticed this month, that happened again. Now we’re assuming, and it is a big assumption, that this is going to be a thing.

It’s a repeating event.

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A lot of you had questions. How do they choose the people? I don’t know. I don’t have answers to that. The only thing that I know for sure as a requirement is that you’ve never been to the studio. If you’ve never done a live class in studio, you could be invited, regardless of where you live. This is happening to people in all states, all ages, etc. If you’ve never been, keep a lookout. Make sure you don’t have these go into your junk mail. You could be one of the lucky people to get to go.

What happens if you get an invite but you live in Cleveland?

You either make a quick flight or you don’t go.

It’s nice that they’re extending this offer to people who don’t live in the tri-state area for sure, but it also feels like if you live in Oregon, it’s probably a worthless invite.

I guess it depends on how much advance notice you get. I don’t know.

Also, I don’t think most people probably have the luxury like, “Let me book a flight so I can do a Peloton in-studio class.”

That’s probably true, but I don’t know what else Peloton can possibly do.

I’m not even trying to sh*t on it.

There are a lot of people that are, so I’m trying to walk that back. There has been a lot of negativity around. Here’s the thing. Everyone complains that it’s the same five people they see in class every week. This is a way that Peloton is going out of its way to get out of that rut. Can they help other people that can’t come? No, they can’t. It’s a fair point. I just don’t know what they can do.

They can’t start handing out flights. I totally get that. I was just wondering if there was any sort of way. I wonder if behind the scenes, you’re like, “I’m going to be there in three months. Could I maybe do that?”

I have no idea if they would do that. I know that they’re pretty nice. If they have the ability to, they’ll probably do their best to help you out.

Ultimately, it’s good that they’re doing something. As someone who grew up a nerd, I’m always in favor of someone helping out virgins.

I need to see it my way.

Thank you for your assistance. You now have personalized weekly plans on the Guide.

This is interesting. We know this has been testing on the Guide for a while. There are some mixed feelings about this. It might be a bit early for us to get super excited about it, but I like the potential. I like where we’re headed. In theory, you go into your Guide and you tell it, “This is how many times a week that I want to work out. This is how experienced of a lifter or a strength exerciser I am. Also, I want to work out with weights or not with weights.” Those are some basic questions, and then every Monday, they will release a new plan for you that shows you like, “Here are some options for you.”

I’m very curious to see when we get to the next level. I’m seeing a lot of things coming back. The classes themselves are great. There’s nothing wrong with that at all. I am hearing that people that are using this are really heavy on one instructor, and then they will be light on another instructor. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of smartness in the system yet to figure out how to mix up that more, but also how to figure out instructors you already working out with. We don’t know what their algorithm is, but I think it needs a little bit of tweaking before we can be excited. I love the direction they’re headed and I’m glad that we have another new feature to talk about.

As AI is rapidly taking over the world, you got to think that this is only going to get better faster.

Barry’s big thing was we’re going to personalize everything on Peloton. He was like, “That’s our goal.” This is a very definite step in that direction. I love seeing it.

They also made some updates to Peloton Gym.

Now they are going to specify how to complete unilateral movements, right side, left side, alternating, or simultaneous. They’re going to be providing clear direction on the rounds and the movements required for a gym ladder movement group. All of that to say, you’re getting more specific details in your workout. That’s nice for people who are using this and they aren’t already experts at the gym, and they’re looking for more direction, which is great. I love seeing it.

Finally for the segment anyway, it’s officially back to school season. You and the helper bees over at TheClipOut.com put together a list of some of the best apps for back to school. One of them would be Peloton.

If we make it through this week without me fighting, your son is going to kill me. I’m not sure I can make it.

It’s been a lot. He leaves for school in two weeks.

Emotions are everywhere.

It’s still like pulling teeth to get him to pack. It’s like, “Dude, you’re going across the country.” We live in St. Louis, and he’s going to school in Connecticut. I’m like, “You got to go, like get your stuff together literally.”

I don’t have an app for that. I do have some apps that are great, whether they’re younger students or older students. As you said, Tom, Peloton is on this list. If you are a family member of somebody that has a Peloton, that’s great. You would be able to use that. Let’s say that it’s a college student, and they are starting off to go to college, and they don’t have all the things. Now they can take the Peloton app with them and get a student discount.

One of my favorite apps I’ve used for years is Evernote. You can take notes and this is good whether you want to study, attach photos and files, whether you’re doing this for class or a project you’re working on. I’ve done it for both and it’s amazing. I love the fact that you can use this on your iPad, and you can use your stylus to write directly in it, making notes, making files, and adding files. It’s so fast and easy, and being able to share it across multiple devices is fantastic. We have tons of apps on this list. I highly recommend that you check out #NotAnAd.

This is just a collection of things you dig.

It’s not just me. All of our writer bees or helper bees are included in there as well.

We saw lots of job postings. A lot of them were for various showrooms, which we’re supposed to call stores. A couple were over in the UK. One was in Long Beach. I guess the Long Beach store is safe for a little bit. We also saw this one, Manager of Music and Content Partnerships.

Selfishly, I hoped that Tom would dig it and he would get this job.

Based on the fact that you need to live in New York and what their pain is, it would be a pay cut.

Maybe you could convince them to work from home.

I could do this but I don’t already work in this end of the world, so I don’t know that they would want me for that.

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I know a person. There’s a lady I’m thinking of who would be good for this, but I’m guessing they can’t afford her to work for this. Anyway, I love this whole role of the Manager of Music and Content Partnerships. The reason that I think it’s fun and exciting is it shows that Peloton is continuing to grow these partnerships, and continuing to do fun things with it. It also talks about how to get the most out of this, marketing-wise, and how to get the most bang for your buck for these things.

It says member growth and engagement partnerships. That means we’re going to see more cool stuff happening with the music we’re already getting, like the photo booths we reported in the last episode. One of the perks of that was that whenever there is an artist collaboration and you’re there, you’re going to be able to have pictures of you and the artists. The artwork is one of the things you can choose from. That’s fun. That makes it neat. I think you’re going to be seeing more things like this, and I like highlighting that.

What I think they should do. This is the job I should have. I should have this job, but instead of for music, it should be for pop culture. I feel like there are so many lost opportunities to tie in directly with film and TV properties. You could create rides that aren’t necessarily tied around a specific musical act. Obviously, there’s going to be music. It’s a Peloton ride.

They’ve done pretty well with Disney and with sports, but there’s a lot that could still be done here.

How cool would it be if Indiana Jones come up? What if you did a scenic run but you’re running through an Indiana Jones scene? You’re running from a boulder or you’re running through the jungle or what have you. Anyway, there are lots of things they could do.

I hope you’re listening, Peloton. Tom’s got ideas. They are going to have to pay more than this though unless he can work from home.

Coming up after this, we’re going to talk to Dr. Jenn. She’s going to answer a question about what to do when an instructor upsets you. Maybe they said something to you directly. Maybe they have an opinion that you don’t share, but you love their classes. How do you process that? She’s got thoughts. Stick around.

Joining us once again is Dr. Jenn Mann, licensed marriage, family and child therapist, and sports psychology consultant. She’s a five-year national team member in rhythmic gymnastics, and sports psychology for USA Gymnastics. It’s Dr. Jenn.


We’ve got a tough question for you, Dr. Jenn. This one is more of a general question. I’ve talked to a lot of people over the years who have interacted with instructors on all different levels. These instructors become almost God-like to some of us. Sometimes things happen that reduce our view of those instructors, whether it be something that was said to us directly or something that might have occurred, maybe even something you saw on social media, and maybe you interpreted it to be about you. Whatever happens, it can change your view of that instructor, and it can absolutely be devastating. For people that it occurs to, do you have any thoughts on how they can handle that in a healthy way?

Tom, I bet you will remember the David Cassidy album. It was called something like The Higher They Climb, The Harder They Fall. Do you remember that album?


I think it’s very applicable to Peloton instructors and our view of them. The more we put someone on a pedestal, the harder they’re going to fall because nobody can live up to the expectations. Whether it is a Peloton instructor or a celebrity, when there’s someone who you are seeing from the comfort of your own home, your bike, or your tread, and you start to feel like you know them, you start to project a lot onto them. When I say project, I mean we fill in the blanks. If you think of it as connect-the-dot, we draw the picture that we want there to be as opposed to the person who they actually are.

We are all human. We are all flawed. We all have good days and bad days. We all say things we regret or sometimes we get triggered and take things personally or take things the wrong way, as do the instructors. It’s important to keep in mind that all of our instructors are humans. They have their good days and bad days. Sometimes they may be misunderstood. Sometimes there may be information out there about them that is not accurate. Sometimes they say things that rub us the wrong way. Oftentimes, when that happens, it shatters our idea of who they are.

We tend to be like, “That instructor is wearing the same outfit as me. We have so much in common. She talked about how she loved that song when she was 16. That was my favorite song when I was 16. She just broke up with her boyfriend. I broke up with my boyfriend. I felt the exact same way.” We start to identify with the instructors and feel merged with the instructor like we have a bond and a connection that we have in our heads.

Some people do interact with the instructor. That sometimes makes it even more complicated because a lot of the instructors are so warm and friendly, and it makes us feel special when they message us on Instagram or respond to a post we did about them. That feels very special. Again, they’re humans. Part of our job is to enjoy what they bring to us on the bike, tread, rower, mat, and all of that, but also to recognize that they are human. If we put them too much on a pedestal, there’s nowhere for them to go but down.

Also, at the end of the day, you only need these instructors to be good at one thing. That’s helping you through your tread, bike, Guide stuff, or whatever.

They are inspiring you enough to get on, do the workout, or stay on.

Just because somebody is a good instructor doesn’t mean they’re good at other things. I don’t mean to say that they’re bad people, but they might not be your kind of people. That’s the downfall of what they call a parasocial relationship, where you end up knowing a lot about them because they’re sitting there talking, and that resonates with you, but they don’t know anything about you. You’re just a camera.

It’s easy to forget that.

It’s funny because I’ve had people do it to us. I know that I do it too. I have podcasts I listen to where I feel like me and that guy would be friends when it’s totally not.

I do that with TV shows or characters.

We do that with our instructors. It’s very easy to do that with our instructors because they’re so personable. Part of the reason why they have these cool jobs is not just they are at instructing, leading classes, picking music, and all that, but they’re charismatic people. They’re gorgeous, smart, funny, and interesting. Their charisma is off the charts and that draws us to them. Again, they are human just as we are.

Thank you so much for all that. Until next time, where can people find you?

You can find me on social media @DrJennMann. I post all of my Peloton workouts on my Stories.

Thank you.

Cody Rigsby has announced his book tour.

We got all these dates up. It starts on September 10th in Northfield, New Jersey. The last stop is September 21st in Chicago. Apparently, there is a virtual option as well.

At least some of them, there is.

This is nice. I know that a lot of these sold out fast. We got it up as many places as we could. These events went fast like the Riley North Carolina. All of these were gone within an hour.

Most of these appear to be at Indie bookstores. They’re probably not the biggest places in the world, which is great that he’s helping out any bookstores. I’m not smirking that, but it also means one would think that the capacity is going to be pretty limited at some of these places.

It would mean that. You also get a signed copy of the book whenever you sign up for that. If there happens to be availability still and you haven’t signed up, you absolutely should get yourself a signed copy.

I do think with the virtual option, there’s still a version where you can get a signed copy of the book. You can do it by just watching or extra, and you also get a copy of the book. Just because you can’t attend in person doesn’t mean you can’t get a signed copy, so give it a shot.

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There you go.

Kendall Toole is getting an award. It’s a brand new award called the Make An Impact Award.

It’s being presented by the American Association of Suicidology, which the spelling does not catch. That’s not a word according to the dictionary

Got yourself a red squiggly there?

I did. It was annoying, so I could make it go away. Kendall has talked a lot about how she feels about mental health and mental illness, and what she struggled with. This award is to say, “You made an impact by sharing all that information and resources with other people.” Since it is the first of its kind, it’s pretty exciting to have that bestowed upon anybody that has that happen. It’s pretty exciting. Congrats to Kendall.

Camila Ramón decided to give people tips on how to prevent and avoid chafing, which I would think is super important in the world of exercise.

It is super important, and keeping things dry is very key to all of this. Also, they have all kinds of little glides that you can use. Body Glide is my go-to, although I’m the same person that got blisters this big on my feet. Why don’t you listen to Camila Ramón, and not to me?

That sounds like a good prescription for a blister-free future. Jess Sims is gearing up for the new season of College Game Day.

She’s getting the excitement going. She had questions for everybody reading her social media. She wanted to know what you want to see on social as she visits each city and campus. She wants to know what you want to see more of on the show. She also was very excited about the fact that she just did her kickoff Zoom meeting. If you were wondering, this is probably going to follow the same format as last year where her Saturday ’60s are not going to be live. They will be prerecorded, and then they will show up on demand. That’s how she was able to keep it going last year. Everyone is hopeful that that will continue this year during the College Game Day season.

Christine D’Ercole is competing in the USA Cycling Masters Track National Championships. That’s a mouthful just saying that.

She’s going to be winded when she’s done. You might remember that she was injured last year. This is scary to be going back to this. Today is the first day. I know you won’t be tuning in to this until two days later. She’ll be in the middle of it. Make sure that you cheer on them. If you go to this article, you will be able to find a link where you can track all of her races and see how she is doing. We are all wishing her a lot of luck.

When you go to TheClipOut.com, you can go to the search icon and type in Christine and it will be one of the top articles that pop up.

You can do it from your mobile as well.

We have a couple of mysterious posts from instructors. Adrian Williams and Logan Aldridge both separately posted mysterious images from a recording studio.

It looks like the recording studio where they record all of their outdoor content. The interesting thing thing is that Logan has never had any outdoor content. Also, they weren’t in the same recording studio at the same time. That we can tell. Are they maybe doing something for outdoor content? Is there maybe something coming up with AFO? Another big thing is everybody is hoping that this means Adrian is going to be recording sleep meditations. People everywhere are obsessed with Adrian, how he looks, and how he sounds. He’s dreamy. They’re hoping to be carried off into dreamland. No one is saying the same thing about Logan. I suspect it’s outdoor content, but we shall see.

Although people are saying that Logan is dreamy.

Of course. They’re not saying that they think he’s doing the sleep meditation.

Also, Tunde had a post teasing an unnamed new project.

She has posted several different posts about it. She’s teasing it everywhere. Nobody knows what it is. We will be keeping you up to date on all of that.

That wraps up instructors in the news. We have more stories to share with you if you want to check them out on our bonus episode that lives over at Patreon.com/TheClipOut. It is there waiting for you. Coming up after this, we’re going to talk to Angelo. We have a listener wanting to know whether it makes more sense to do multiple shorter workouts in a day instead of one long workout. He’s got answers for you. Stick around.

Joining us once again from MetPro, it’s Angelo, here to answer all your fitness and nutrition questions. How’s it going?

It is going great, guys. Thank you once again for having me back. I always love being here.

We love when you’re here because we like to help people answer questions. We know that you do too. We have one that was emailed to me. This is from Maeve. She wants to know about breaking up workouts throughout the day. She said that for the last three years, she has been good about working out 3 to 4 times a day, in the afternoons after work. She has a hybrid work setup. Most days, she has a lot of flexibility.

She wants to accelerate her fat loss and read recently that it’s best to do cardio in the morning and strength training in the afternoon. Instead of doing one full hour in the afternoons, is there any benefit to doing 30 minutes of cardio in the morning and 30 minutes of strength in the afternoon? Also, if morning cardio is good, should it be before or after breakfast? There are like six questions there.

These are good questions. I was recently discussing this with the clients. They deserve an answer, and the answer of course is it depends.

The first thing I would think is if you want to break them up, you got to be really focused on actually doing them. It’s so easy to be like, “I’ll do one in the morning,” and then be like, “I worked out today.” I’d be like, “Good enough.”

I would do that for sure.

You’re right, and a lot of people do. Maeve is not doing that. I can tell you by how she worded that question.

I would agree.

I love questions like this because I want people to understand the nuance that goes into selecting the right choice for you. It’s not a simple matter of, “AM cardio is best. Do weights in the afternoon. One long workout or break it up is always best.” They affect the body differently. Here’s the benefit of breaking up workouts into smaller ones throughout the day. The benefit is instead of getting a metabolic spike once in the day, you get it twice. What does that mean? Recent research has come out that has shown athletes participating in high-intensity exercise still show signs of an elevated BMR or base metabolic rate up to 22 hours after the exercise session.

In theory, you’re going to get that spike, and then you’re going to get a second spike. What it’s going to do is it’s going to keep your body at an elevated metabolic rate. It’s not a massive rate. Most of that elevation declines within about three hours, but you still have some base elevation. Here’s the trick. When they redid that study, but now under the circumstance of someone who’s in a hypocaloric state, dieting and trying to lose weight, the metabolism has one extra little job and way to get back at us. They didn’t last anywhere near 22 hours showing an uptick. Why? It’s because the body is trying to become more efficient. Metabolism is acclimating. It’s onto you.

However, what that does is it puts an additional feather in the cap of breaking up your workouts because it’s simply a little bit harder. This is not going to be the difference. If I have 30 pounds to lose and I’m going to lose it because I’m taking my one-hour workout and splitting it into two 30-minute workouts. You’re not going to lose 30 pounds. It’s not going to happen. I’ve been at this weight. I’ve been doing all the things right. I’m fighting with these last 4 pounds. Now, let me make this adjustment. These are the type of things that can make a difference. They’re nuance. They are not the main entree. The main entree is going to be daily totals.

It’s like snow chains. If your tires are working no matter what, and all of a sudden, they stop working, you put snow chains on.

Tom always has an illustration.

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He does. That one was in pop culture though. I’m impressed.

I’ve seen them put on snow chains in movies. I’ve never seen snow chains in real life. I just wait for things to thaw. Why shovel the driveway? That’s what spring is for.

He’s not joking.

I used a snow shovel once in the last twenty years. It was to pick up dog poop.

Maeve, thank you for the question. The answer is to stop all your cardio and just shovel snow.

While wearing snow chains. It’s like CrossFit.

Real quick, the counterbalance. Why wouldn’t everyone split their workouts? There is a very relevant reason. That is there are biological systems that adapt based on time. There is little incentive to not break it up other than practicalities and time management if you’re not trying to increase endurance. If you’re trying to increase your endurance, what you need is the last half hour. The first half hour doesn’t get you into the pathways. It doesn’t challenge the way your body uses fuel uptakes, triglycerides, and mitochondria feed the body in different ways on a cellular level. All these adaptations take place in the last few minutes of your endurance session.

Therefore, there is no short-cutting endurance where you have to put in the time and they have to be consecutive minutes. If that is not a primary goal for you and long-duration endurance is not a factor, there is some subtle benefit. That said, we did a test at MetPro where we analyzed a large subset of our clientele. The results were surprising.

The results were that individuals participating in exercise greater than three days a week would lose an increase of 34% in body fat. They would lose that much more weight. The ones that didn’t exercise because they were manipulating the diet still lost weight, but 34% more. Here’s the kicker. That did not take into consideration time or intensity. Does that mean time and intensity don’t matter? Absolutely not. I can tell you, doing this for twenty years, they matter.

What it does give us an indication is the big picture. The big picture is habits. If you take large subsets of the population, and I had to give you advice to help you improve your metabolism, getting consistent with your workouts is your number one goal. Whether you prefer working out in the morning or evening, my answer is workout when you’ll be the most consistent.

Research indicated that in early morning workouts, the average person is more consistent. We can imagine the reasons for that. If you can’t work out first thing in the morning, workout in the afternoon and anchor it to something in your schedule that doesn’t move. Maeve asked if she should be doing cardio in a fasted state or not fasted state. A lot of that depends on how much weight you have to lose and your body type.

The mesomorph and endomorph are typically well served by some fasting state cardio because usually, muscle loss is not a big factor for them. Ectomorphs that are close to their goal weights are not usually served well by fasting state cardio because what it does is it gives you a slight notch in fat burning, and it gives you a slight mark against muscle development. That’s usually not a good exchange for ectomorphs. Each person has to determine which priority they’re going to have.

In all cases, if your performance is suffering, in other words, because I didn’t have breakfast first, I can only get through half the workout, that’s a losing equation. Assuming breakfast first or not isn’t significantly impacting your exercise, then consider your goal and consider your body type in deciding if fasting state cardio is right for you. Hopefully, that’ll help a little. If you’re that petite frame, Maeve, you may go ahead and eat breakfast first. If muscle mass is not an issue for you, try some fasting state. If your energy holds, do cardio first. Save your resistance training in the afternoon.

Thank you for all that. This is not a one size fits all thing. If people would like things tailored to their own personal journeys, where can they find you?

You might remember a year ago or so, people thought J.J. Watt was on Peloton. He’s a big-time football player. We’ve been told he’s now retired.

They said he is a sports guy, so we don’t know.

That turned out to not be true. Now, he is actually on Peloton. He posted from his own verified account so we know that it’s true. He also had some questions about how metrics are being decided because he didn’t come in first.

He was like, “Is Lance Armstrong in this class?” He was number eight out of 54,000 people. We all say to you, J.J., their bikes are jacked.

We’re not saying there isn’t someone out there. He’s a professional athlete, but there are lots of professional athletes that have bikes.

Maybe the eight of them were on the same bike.

Perhaps, but statistically speaking, probably not. Welcome to the Peloton family, J.J. Watt.

The Extra Series has new classes.

I need to be clear that these are talking about rowing. I call it Extra 10, but it’s just Extra. It’s Extra 5 actually for the row, but they’re expanding to the row and that’s the whole point. That’s what’s exciting. Now we have Extra classes you can drop into your runs, walks, hikes, and biking, but now we’re adding the row. It’s very cool.

Peloton is celebrating the 50th anniversary of Hip Hop.

They’re doing that Hip Hop tour we talked about. This week, we are headed to the South. There’s going to be a 30-minute run with Marcel Dinkins. There’s going to be a 30-minute Hip Hop yoga with Denis, and then a 30-minute Hip Hop bootcamp with Jess Sims. That’s all in collaboration with Rock The Bells and LL Cool J.

Joslyn Thompson Rule has a special class for UK Carnival.

The Carnival takes place in August. Apparently, it takes place just outside of Hyde Park in the UK. I only know this because I recently took the 20-minute scenic walk. It was with Hannah Frankson and one of the German instructors that was with her. They talked about the Carnival. Joslyn Thompson Rule is doing a special class. It’s going to be on August 25th at noon, Eastern. It’s going to be a walk and run, so walk plus run. Last year, there was a walk. You can pair that up while you get ready or take them back-to-back. That would be awesome.

Gospel yoga classes are back.

They sure are. Chelsea Jackson Roberts has been doing gospel yoga classes, and they come back seasonally. This year they are back. I’m very excited to see that.

DJ John Michael announced some new Lanebrake levels for people.

Their new levels were Mötley Crüe and ‘90s Pop. There’s a 15-minute Mötley Crüe hits, then there’s a 30-minute set, then there is a 30-minute Pop Extravaganza. Lots of fun and those are all for the tread.

We also have a new 30-minute Trevor Hall yoga flow.

Trevor Hall uses yoga. He practices yoga. There will be one special class on August 11th at 6:30 AM taught by Kristin McGee. You can also file it under Artists Collaboration.

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I didn’t realize he was an artist. I thought he was a yoga instructor.

He does folk music. It’s not something that would be on your radio or radar.

It wouldn’t be on my radio either. The only folk musician I listen to is the Smothers Brothers. You can absolutely count the Smothers Brothers as folk musicians. Don’t get me started. I’ll go down a whole pop culture down your rabbit hole about the Smothers Brothers and folk music. I’ll do it.

Save it.

Kirsten Ferguson has a new 15-minute run.

She does, but this one is special. It is an audio-only outdoor run. It’s geared toward beginners and those returning from injury. As you know, she recently had an injury that she is recovering from. it is perfect for people in the same boat.

Logan Aldridge also has a new adaptive strength.

It’s another seated adaptive class and it’s going to be taking place on August 10th at 10:00 AM Eastern. Make sure that you check it out.

Finally, there are all new resistance band classes for people to check out.

These are with Marcel Maurer. They’re probably going to be taking place in Germany. These take place on August 8th. They started on August 8th. You can check those out. They should already be on demand waiting for you.

Finally, every week, within The Clip Out group, which if you’re not in, you should be. Find us at Facebook.com/TheClipOut, like the page, and join the group. They are two different things. We asked people to give us their top five weekly classes and/or their favorite class, and then we compile to see which are the top five.

We had a 10-minute breathing meditation from Chelsea Jackson Roberts. We also had another Barbie class. This one showed up from Marcel Dinkins and it was on 8/3, 30 minutes. We had a 60-minute walk and run with Mariana Fernandez, a 30-minute Epic Sing Along ride with Jenn Sherman, and then another 60-minute total strength with Andy Speer. Can we run through and tell why people loved them?


This person, her name was Jennifer Perez. She noticed she was anxious. She was getting ready to start a scuba diving course and she used this meditation to calm her nerves. She did it the night before and it helped, and she felt a lot better. We have our favorite run, the Shady Barbie. That was what Marcel called it. Everybody loved the Barbie classes. This was no exception. Trish, one of our tipsters, loved this take on the Barbie theme. It was a lot of fun and she was Shady Barbie and throwing shade at people in the room who hadn’t seen the movie.

With all the money it’s making, I’m surprised there’s anybody left who hasn’t seen the movie.

We have the favorite Peloton run-walk. This one was with Mariana. I took this class and I got to tell you, she was not joking. Mariana did an 11-minute running interval in a walk-run class. When this person says that, they were like, “What?” “Yeah, 11 minutes.” I have to say this whole class was amazing. I felt so good when I was done. It had a great playlist, including Green Day, Eminem, and Taylor Swift. We had the epic sing-along with JSS.

I have to highlight Lisa Getty’s favorite moment in the class. Jenn Sherman was in top form. It was all lady’s music. During Jenny by Tommy Tutone, she said, “If there’s a single one of you who don’t know the number, get the f*ck out.” I love it. She meant you’re probably not in her age range if you don’t. Also, 60 minutes with Andy. The class was so great. Andy knows his stuff. His adjustment prompts are great. I feel like he’s talking directly to me, “Elongate your spine and focus on your core.” How does he know I was slouching and slacking? I love that.

It was just a hunch.

That is from Linda Hawk. Lots of fun feedback from the TCO community.

Thank you so much, guys. Also, don’t forget that there was a new apparel drop.

It was a couple of things. It was a windbreaker and some shorts. It ties into the Jenn Sherman ‘80s theme. In that, they looked like windbreakers from the 1980s, but they are back. They are stylish. I don’t know how well they are selling. I will be curious to see. There’s a little mini capsule collection great for runners.

Finally, on birthdays, we got three. First up, we have the aforementioned Christine D’Ercole on August 11th. I guess it means she’ll be racing on her birthday. Rebecca Kennedy on August 13th, and former instructor and past guest Nicole Meline on August 17th. If you see them on socials or in real life, wish them a happy birthday.

Happy birthday, ladies.

Coming up next in our interview, we’re going to learn all about grief doulas. It’s not as sad as you might think. It’s a natural part of life, but it’s a riveting conversation. Do stick around.

Joining us for this episode is Jokotifa Alaye. How’s it going?

Wonderful. I’m so grateful to be with you.

We are so grateful to have you here.

I’m always intrigued when someone comes on camera and they’ve got a crazy good microphone. I’m like, “What does that mean?”

It means I’m trying.

She’s got videos, Tom. She’s got lots of videos and lots of things that she’s sharing with the universe, which we’re going to dive into because I have lots of questions.

Let’s get to the diving.

Let’s start at the beginning. How did you originally find Peloton?

In 2019, Peloton came to my awareness and I wanted it. I was like, “This is going to be it,” but I get excited about things and so I said, “I’m going to try the app and if I can use the app and stick to that, then I know I can commit.” I tried the app. The first thing I ever did is I took it to the gym. I did Matt Wilpers’s stretch, and then a run. I loved Matt from day one. I used the app consistently and it felt like I needed to do it. It felt like it was something I needed to buckle down and get done. At the end of 2019, I made two purchases. I made the Peloton purchase, which came in December, and I bought a Tushy bidet, then it became 2020.

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I feel like you cursed us.

I did not. The universe was like, “You are going to need these things to get through 2020. That’s’ going to be your soundbite.” That is fine. You can get sponsored by Tushy at this point. The gyms were closed. One day, I went to eight stores and there was no toilet paper. I was like, “It’s cool. It’s fine. We’re going to make do with this thing.”

It’s funny. I remember posting online as it was all ramping up that Amazon started limiting how many bidets you could buy.

We knew we needed it. We bought two because we were like, “Oh.”

We have three bathrooms in our house, not to brag, and we could only buy two. I was like, “The kids are going to smell funny.”

It took a lot for me to convince my family. That was something we needed to do but now we’re all sold. We don’t want to live with that one. We’ve upgraded since then. I have a Tushy and other ones but anyway, I felt blessed by the universe.

I have to ask. This might be a hyper-personal question, so tell me to shut up. What is the upgrade in a bidet? What are the levels?

There are levels but I got the cheap one. It’s tap cold water. A nicer one has a seat warmer, warm water, and different speeds.

You know that we are at a certain age when we start getting excited about things like this. I was doing my list of all the things on Amazon Prime days. I saw some of those fancy bidets and I was like, “We might need to upgrade.”

For some holidays, I said to my husband, “Can we get the next model up?”

At the end of 2019, you were ahead of the pandemic buyers. That’s great because you didn’t have to wait forever to get your bike.

I lucked out. I had it when everything shut down because I was going to the gym too. I was taking spin classes there. I had it for that for all of it.

That’s a trying time. Were you always a fit person? You were going to the gym. You were doing all the things before you got the Peloton. Is fitness a big part of your life or not?

It is now. Here’s the arc. I’ve always had weight issues in my life. I’ve always been self-conscious about my weight. At some point, I’m only 5’3”. I’m short. At one point, I got to 200-something pounds. Once we get into that number, I cannot do that anymore. I was like, “What are the skinny people doing?” I saw people running. I was like, “I will start running.” The first thing I started was the Couch to 5K. I had a lot of friends around me who were supportive. They would run with me. My first run was a 5K color run. I felt so great that I had achieved this big thing.

You should.

At some point in there, I’m trying to figure out my weight. I got pregnant and I had lost weight by then. I had my baby. Pregnancy, birth, and all of that was another empowering situation for me. That taught me that my body is able to do difficult things and thrive through it. I loved the whole thing.

That’s great. Many times, you hear women come out the other side of that and they’re like, “I’m glad I have a kid but that was awful.” It’s nice that you enjoyed the process like that.

Not because it was pain-free. Part of it was fun but it’s more how powerful it is. I came out of that experience going, “I’m capable of being powerful,” for shame that I didn’t realize my body could do these things. I then gained weight again because that’s what you do when you have the baby and maybe whatever. I stayed home for a little bit. I said, “Let me get back to running.” I’m also a bullet point checker. I like to check things off, “I had a baby, check, done.”

That’s the hardest thing. What’s the next hardest thing? “A marathon. That’s a hard thing. I will do that.” I started training for the marathon. I did one in Portland in 2014. I’m not doing that again. I’ll be very clear. It was a slog. I finished. It wasn’t about time. It was about doing it and telling myself I could do it. What’s the next thing? “Bodybuilding sounds fun. I will now try bodybuilding.” I found a coach and I did a figure competition in 2016 maybe.

These are extreme things that I did from being unhappy with the amount of physical exertion I was doing to wanting to feel powerful to completing these goals. I’m not someone who can commit to the long run. I could choose to but I have a lot of other competing obligations. I’ve continued to run/walk. I did a half marathon this 2023, but I walked it pretty much to say I did it.

I will never do bodybuilding again. There’s nothing else like it. I loved the consistency. I loved the ritual behind making your food, packing it, bringing it with you, and the transformations that happen but that’s very extreme. Now it’s all like me putting it all together like, “How do I have a baseline of healthy choices and healthy activity?” Peloton is now a part of that. Although, I’m supposed to make fun of you, Tom, for not having a Peloton.

That’s fine.

I cannot make fun of you, so I retract it because I have not been writing it. I blame it on being a manifesting generator. I learned that I’m that. Apparently, manifesting generators do new things all the time and they love one thing.

You’ve still done it more than I have. It’s hysterical to hear you back up a little bit when you were talking about weightlifting. You’re like the thing that you liked the most was the food prepping. Everybody always seems to hate having to deal with prepping the food. I find it fascinating that was a selling point for you and you enjoyed that.

Enjoy is a tough word. I appreciated it. If I said enjoy, okay.

The vibe I got was enjoy. That could be on me.

I enjoy the structure. If you tell me what to eat, I will create a structure and I will eat it. I’ll pack it and take it. It is like a little ritual of nutrients.

You liked taking the guesswork out of “What should I eat?” To reach your goals, I mean.

I liked the structure that was involved in “You do this and this happens.”

I see that. I’m like that. I’m like, “Put the dots close together for me.” I don’t understand why they work but I’ll connect the dots. You got to put the dots there for me.

I was irritated about that for a long time, that I needed dots. I was like, “I should be able to do it. I’m an adult. I’ve done these things before. I should just do it.” That took some processing, then I saw a meme. I don’t know. It was like, “Olympic athletes have coaches.” Who am I to not need a coach?

That’s a great way to look at it. It’s true. It’s not like you found a way to lie to yourself but that’s a very valid point.

People do better with coaches and accountability.

That’s why they got them.

It’s so funny too that a lot of people will not think twice about getting a coach for fitness, especially if they want to run or something. Whenever you add nutrition, they’re like, “I should know that.” It’s like what you said, “I should know what my problem is,” but it’s no different. In fact, nutrition is 80% of the battle. It’s not crazy that people need some help.

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We’re still learning things about nutrition every day because it’s not like regular science. You can’t A/B test nutrition. There’s no way to guarantee. Someone’s always going to eat the exact same thing, while this control group does the exact opposite. There’s so much gray murkiness around the “right way” to eat.

I’ve enjoyed all the science that’s coming out about protein in athletes because they keep learning new things. They’re like, “In general, people should eat more protein,” especially if they’re bodybuilding. That’s very established. On the other side of things, it’s like protein is so particular to the individual.

You can’t just have a USRDA recommendation that’s going to cover everybody in every circumstance. I like drilling down on that piece of it. Especially older women, we need to have more protein, but if you’re trying to lose weight, that can work against you. I find the whole thing fascinating. Sorry, I went down another rabbit hole.

Rabbits are full of protein.

I did macros when I was doing the bodybuilding. My coach had me dialed in. She did such a great job. I wanted to do macros on my own but that was a struggle. Do you know who Michael Pollan is, the Food Rules guy? He’s an author of a lot of books. Someone gifted me Food Rules. He was like, “Eat foods, mostly plants. Eat things your grandmother could pronounce.” There’s a bunch but they’re really simple.

What if your grandmother was dumb? What do you do then?

Eat bread and apples.

That’s a great answer.

I’m going to say your grandma’s just fine.

I gained 900 pounds because my grandma had a stutter.

I don’t believe that about your grandma.

He’s messing with you.

I figured.

Changing gears a little bit, you have Peloton. We’ve talked a little bit about that, and you have a blog. I know somehow these two things intersect but I don’t know how. Tell us a little bit about your blog.

I’m going to tell you about me, then I’ll get to the blog. I am a Death Care Professional, which means I’ve worked in mortuaries since I was eighteen years old. I’m now in my 40s, so for a little over 25 years, I worked in the death care profession. I have gone through different iterations of what I do while I am there, from the very basic stuff to just maintaining the building to then taking on apprenticeships, learning to meet with families, and driving the hearse. Pretty much all the things that you could think to do in a funeral home, I have done.

Now, the pandemic. Like so many people, I sat and thought, “Why am I here? What is it that I’m meant to do?” That time could have been very transformative for people. You saw that. You saw people quit their job because they weren’t happy and they go into something else. You saw people realize their time was short. You saw people confronted with mortality and making changes. I’m very aware of mortality. Every day, someone is grieving around me. Still, it takes a thing like that to evaluate your life when mortality comes into your awareness, which for me takes a little extra to say, “Am I doing what I’m meant to do?”

I also know from my job in death care that as a society, we don’t grieve very well. We bottle it up and we don’t do funerals well. It’s something that we struggle with that idea. Even with the word funeral, people are like, “I don’t want that.” I see a lot of that now. I’m looking at the way that we handle that on a day-to-day basis, which we already need to put work there. I’m looking at the way that we are processing this tremendous loss. Not just the loss of life but the loss of this idea of the world was supposed to be away.

Now it is not this way and it will never be that way again. Even now as we’re doing things for the most part back to the way it was, there’s still a piece of us that recognizes that. For many people, their day-to-day life is significantly changed. I want to honor that. For those of us who are less affected and that don’t have something specific, it’s still there.

If I go to a concert or a movie, I don’t wear a mask anymore. I was always a mask guy. I’m not that guy but I still have those moments of like, “Should I be?” I still feel a little weird for not doing it.

It’s all of those shifts that we’re going through and figuring out how we’re going to be the best person in our community. How are we going to protect ourselves and one another? It’s a different way of thinking and one that has its roots. This grief of our life is different. Every time we think something like that, it means we’ve lost our steadiness. We’ve lost the foundation that we came to rely on.

I looked at people not handling it, and I wasn’t handling it right. It’s no fault of anybody. It’s an unhandle-able thing. I thought, “We are going to need so much work in grieving. I better do what I can do to be in a place to support people in that way.” I have this foundation of death care and meeting with families. I can’t tell you how many families I’ve met with over the course of the years dealing with this very acute loss.

Now I’m pairing that foundation with what I’ve learned about grief and what I continue to learn about grief so I can be someone who holds space for that. We don’t forget that that’s happening. As we try to move forward, there still needs to be a place where we can sometimes be sad like, “My life is different. I just want to sit and be sad for a minute.” To have someone say, “You sit with me and I will honor your feelings right now.” I took a death doula course if you have become aware of death doulas.

Only after reading some of your information. That’s the first time I’d ever heard that. I am fascinated by the term. I had no idea such a thing existed but there should be more of them. I do.

It’s gaining traction. It was in People Magazine. There are little blips. For me, I’m in the deaf care algorithm. Everywhere I look, I see it. I know that other people are not. It’s gaining popularity. There are several places you can go to get that training. I took that course and then I took a grief support specialist course as well and said to myself, “How do I take this knowledge and help people with it?” I didn’t know how to do it for a long time. Finally, I was like, “I will create a space where I can do that.” I created Mourning Space. That’s where the blog is. I do a lot of content on Instagram where I try to share with people what I’ve learned through death and dying but also as a witness of grieving.

It sounds like a lot.

It does. It sounds really heavy.

It is a lot. I dance around a lot, skateboard, roller skate, and stuff to shake it out.

I can’t imagine taking that on a daily basis. Even with what you were doing before, working in a funeral home. That sounds like a lot dealing with death day in and day out, and taking it on at its root. A funeral home is dealing with the aftermath, whereas you are dealing with the beginning of the end. I don’t mean to be flippant but that’s just the intensity there. I remember when my father passed away. He was in hospice, and what that was like watching people come and go, and how intense was that. It was 4 or 5 days, which in the grand scheme of things is not that long. I know some people spend a lot more time awaiting that process.

It’s heavy. Even when you’re dealing with somebody else’s, to be a sincere part of it, you have to take a little on. You can’t just watch it at a distance.

Especially with what you are describing because a lot of times, how you take that on is by detaching yourself. By virtue of definition, you can’t detach yourself or you’re not doing what you do.

It’s a balance of both. I can’t take on all of it because let’s say it’s a death care professional, what you don’t want is for you to come to me crying, then I start crying too. You’re looking for someone to hold your hand and walk you.

Some stability.

You’re looking for stability and that’s my job to provide that to you. There is a little bit of detachment and I can’t take on all of the devastation that you’re feeling. I can certainly recognize the space that you’re in and use my knowledge to help you. There has been plenty of situations that were very difficult to remain detached but we try to do that in private.

That makes total sense.

Are you still working at the funeral home?

Doing something with your grief is very powerful because you're taking that emotion. You're making energy with it and getting it out. Share on X

I am. I don’t want to talk much about this, let me say that. It’s a long story. I have a career and then I have this thing I’m doing on the side.

Can we back up a little bit and explain to people what a death doula is and what that entails?

A death doula, which you also might hear be called an end-of-life doula or a death midwife, is a non-medical professional that assists a family or the dying person spiritually, practically, and emotionally at the end of life. Death doulas are very new. I’m saying that to say the title is very new. People have acted in that capacity.

Not even realizing that’s what they were doing.

I’m talking about your grandma with apples. She was there for somebody. Hypothetical grandma was there for someone during that transition and held them through that. There have always been these people. Now there are people who are putting a structure around it and teaching people what they need to know so they can go out and serve others. In such a regulated society, it’s less regulated than a lot of things. Probably because it’s so new.

The doulas define themselves. They say, “As a death doula, these are the services I provide.” It’s like maybe a lawyer, a patent lawyer, a trial lawyer, or whatever. Doulas can say, “I like to focus on helping the dying person. I like to focus on helping the family. I like to focus on legacy work like scrapbooks or recording stories.”

You have to look at the death doulas who are in your community and what they offer and if that’s the right fit for you. It’s meant to be a gap filler with things like hospice or doctors. They’re not medical. They’re not going to give treatment. They’re going to be there to honor your emotions. Maybe you are angry but then your brother is very sad and your uncle is denying that it’s even happening. Not fighting any of those things, just let’s sit with that for a moment.

Maybe let’s help you understand why they could be feeling that way and it’s not wrong. It’s just that people process it differently than just practical stuff, like what do you need to know before and after dealing with a funeral home or any other things you need to tie up? Getting you in touch with other types of healers like maybe acupuncture or aromatherapy or sound healing. Maybe have access to those resources to help you.

Some even do that too. Some are also sound healers and they bring that to their practice. It defines itself. I define myself as an end-of-life doula because that’s the certificate I got, but with a focus on grief. I am not assisting dying people and their families at this moment because I have a career in funeral service. It’s hard to put them both together at this time.

That makes sense. Since it’s so new and a lot of people are probably completely unaware of it, how do people at that moment even find out about its existence?

They’re all over Instagram. I’ll tell you that.

Is the algorithm that good that Instagram knows like, “Your grandma is dying. Here’s death doula for you?”

I don’t know if they do that but I know if you start looking at them, they will show up for you.

For sure, but a lot of people aren’t going to know how to look for them.

I’m going to be on The Clip Out and I’m going to tell Peloton riders that there are things called death doulas. Look for them. Looking up death doulas in your area, I mean Google. That’s what you’re going to do. They’re probably going to be more in posts.

Things take forever to make their way to the Midwest.

I’m wearing parachute pants now. That’s how long it takes.

They are there. They are out there and they want to be found. They want to do this work. There’s NEDA, which is the National End-of-Life Doula Association. If you go to their website, they have lists of providers who are NEDA certified.

That’s good. That’s nice to know too because people are so vulnerable when they’re going through the grieving process. It’s good to know that there’s a certification that points people in the direction of people that want to be there. It’s not just somebody claiming to be a death doula. That’s helpful.

That could be very problematic.

You should go about it like for birth doulas. You might interview a couple of them before you settle on one. That’s another reason why I’m putting so much content on Instagram. Once I’m meeting with someone as a funeral professional, there’s stuff that it’s not the right time to share with you anymore. It’s too much. It’s not helpful.

I’m trying to share that now to a wide audience so that people are prepared before they get to this place because so often, we are not, then we’re faced with it, then we’re emotional. Trying to deal with is an overwhelming thing. It’s too much. The more that people learn about it ahead of time, the better equipped you are to be in this position. Not to make it better but to make yourself more empowered.

You had on your Instagram some information for veterans and I didn’t commit it to memory or anything. I was like, “That’s something that makes total sense.” You assume. You make assumptions about how the world works, then you find out in this incredibly vulnerable time that is not the way the world works. That’s tough. You’re only dealing with all this grief and trying to pivot and deal with that. I love that you’re trying to educate people ahead of time. That’s smart.

It needed to happen for me to feel like I was fulfilling my purpose. I kept wondering what the perfect way to do it was. I did not want to be a content creator. I tried to pay people to do it for me like, “Please do it,” but then no one would do it. I couldn’t find it and I think that was again the universe saying, “You will do it yourself.”

It’s such a hyper-specific topic though. I bet a lot of people, unless it’s something that they already have a deep knowledge and/or passion for, wouldn’t want to wade into it for fear that I would say something wholly inappropriate or wrong.

I touch on that a lot as well and I approach it from both sides. One side is I try to give you things that have the best chance of being offensive. On the other hand, I tell people who are grieving. People are going to say offensive things not with that intention. They’re saying it to comfort you and they’re reaching for the first thing. We’re not taught about this stuff. It’s in the moment. You are deer in the headlights. What do I say? That is not always the best thing in any situation.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been at a funeral and you’re going up to the person who’s like the closest to the loved one. As I’m walking up to that person, in my head, I’m saying over and over again, “Don’t ask how you’re doing.” As soon as I get up there, “How are you doing?”

This is what you do. You keep your mouth shut and you give them a hug. If they’re not huggers, don’t hug them.

Any of my friends would freak out if I hugged them because I’m not a hugger.

Tom’s not a hugger. If he started reaching out to people, they’d be concerned he was not okay.

You don’t do that. Someone else does that.

I’ve done that. I’m not trying to do that. I even know I shouldn’t. You get up there and you blank on what to say to someone in a situation like that and there you are.

You feel so powerless as a person who’s watching somebody grieve. I always say to people. I think that out of all the different things that you can suffer through, grief is the worst because it’s so lonely. Even if you have a family. My sister died when I was young and I remember so specifically thinking how weird it was that my parents and I all lived in the same house. We were all grieving the same thing and yet, we’re so alone in our grief because we all experienced it so differently.

In a way, you’re all grieving a different person. You’re grieving a sister. They’re grieving a daughter. That’s a different thing. Even though the human being is the same person, your connective tissue to that human being is very different.

Very insightful.

Peloton is so much bigger than the equipment. Share on X

It’s so hard. It’s the worst because you don’t know what to say to people because everybody’s so different from where they’re coming from with grief. We’re not telling you anything you don’t know.

One of the things I suggest is if you’re not sure what to say, maybe don’t say anything. Just give them a hug or offer to do something like, “I’m going to come over and I’m going to clean your bathroom today,” bringing it back to the bathroom. People want to get things off their plates. Do little things to get things off their plate or you say, “I love you and I’m here for you.” That’s what they need to hear.

Sometimes, I’ll acknowledge the fact that I don’t know what to say.

That’s another great one.

I got two right.

Sign up for the death doula course.

I have such a weird sense of humor. It either totally works for somebody or they’ll want to punch me in the face.

Some people will want that. Some people want levity brought into their space. I would like to think that I would be one of those people. You never know until it’s happening but a seat for everybody. You do what you got to do.

It is important to have levity in that space in an appropriate manner. Don’t turn it into a Don Rickles roast.

When both your mom and your dad passed away, you dealt with both of those deaths with levity.

The eulogy for both of my parents when they passed away separately, it wasn’t like a tragic thing. In the eulogy I wrote, there were moments when people were laughing. I remember my grandma was mad at me because people were laughing. I was like, “I was telling funny stories about them,” not at their expense. She was so mad that I went up there and had people laughing. I’m like, “When I die, I want people to remember that I said and did funny things. Not be so grief-stricken that it’s this constant burden on them for the rest of their lives.”

Also, your grandma couldn’t hear very well. She can just hear the laughing. She didn’t know what they were laughing at.

It took us forever for her to explain it to us because of the stutter.

My favorite thing of all of the things that I do is to officiate funerals and I will do yours.

I would love that.

I will make it funny.

That would be great.

I will honor you in the way that you would like.

Can I tell you a funny story? When my mother passed away the funeral director injected levity and some very dark levity. He knew who I was. He had figured me out. My dad showed up to my mother’s funeral and they’ve been divorced for years. It was not a good one and they barely spoke. My dad showed up respectfully. His presence was not the problem at all. He showed up and dressed fine. He was like, “All of a sudden, I feel out of place.”

He’s talking to me and the funeral director. He’s like, “I feel out of place because I don’t have a suit jacket on.” I had one on and I never wear a suit jacket. He’s like, “I assumed there’s no way you’re going to wear one and I’d be okay. I don’t want people to think that the ex-husband showed up and isn’t being respectful.” I was like, “Dad, it’s not a big deal. I don’t think anybody’s thinking that.” The funeral director’s like, “I’ve got a sports coat you can borrow if you want.”

I know where that was going already.

For the audience, My dad’s like, “No, I’m fine.” He’s like, “That’s good because it doesn’t sew up in the back.” I hate to say favorite moment at a funeral but I was very grateful for that moment.

It was memorable.

That also meant that the funeral director was being human at that moment with you. That’s a beautiful thing.

I also know I’m like, “That was a big roll of the dice there, buddy.”

I wouldn’t do that but I’m very conservative in those things.

It’s one of those things where you’re better safe than sorry, but I think he knew how I was and how I had been navigating the process. I am honestly very grateful for that moment.

Not everybody can pull it off anyway. I tell Tom all the time that if I say the same things that Tom says, I come off as a b*tch every time. We can say the exact same words and I can even smile while I’m saying it. It doesn’t matter. People have that gift. I don’t have that gift. Back to everything you are doing. Also, we never circled back around to Peloton. Put them together for me.

Something I recommend to people is doing something with your grief is very powerful because you’re taking that emotion. You’re making energy with it and getting it out. That’s a wonderful way, and I don’t have to tell Peloton people that’s what’s happening on that bike. You go to Reddit. On July 27th, someone put on Reddit. It was like, “In the main Peloton group, one ride you go back to when you are feeling down and need to feel all your feels.”

The bike is such a beautiful thing. I want to say this. You don’t need the bike to be a part of the Peloton community. Any of that stuff helps. How many times have I cried on that bike? How many times I am working through or even you don’t even know you’re working through something? One of the instructors says something and you cry. You feel so good after.

It’s one of the reasons that I love the Peloton, but not the bike. The bike is the tool, but the way that the whole system has been created is to create a community so you don’t feel alone and on your back. You have all these people. I see so many people bringing to the Peloton tribes what they’re going through. You see the specific tribes that are dealing with big life issues, and they’re gathering together to support each other.

Peloton is so much bigger than the equipment and I want people to know that. You can get that through the app and these offshoot communities when you sweat it out like you’re putting your emotions somewhere, whether that’s riding, yoga, or strength training. Some people muscle through it and all of that.

It’s such a beautiful community that’s been created. My mantra or my mission statement is to create a community of empowered grievers who intend to save the world by living well and dying better. Peloton does all of that. I’m going to add that little how do you die better part. I’m going to help you with that as you are riding that bike.

I love that. Do you have a favorite instructor that you go to over and over again?

Christine. Maybe a lot of them make you cry but she’s so adept at digging in, then you weren’t expecting it. It’s not even the mood. I love the idea of the mood rides of the sad and even the heated. Those are great, the mental health ones. There are a lot of great rides that point to that, but Christine will dig it out of you with any ride. You’re like, “I’m just here to do my Power Zone.” I love her for that. I also love her aesthetic. Her aesthetic is very similar to my aesthetic. Her music choices are very aligned with my music choices.

Your emotions are there for a reason. They are there to fight. When you integrate them, you become a more powerful person. Share on X

Got a lot of new wave ‘80s going on there.

New wave and dark wave.

As long as there’s waving. Surf music.

That’s a different wave.

Speaking of surfers, I do love Denis but I’m a Power Zone packer. I’m big on structure. I love that. Pretty much the rides that I take are Power Zone rides. I appreciate all of those instructors. Christine, for the feels.

I’m curious because you deal with grief so frequently, where do you go to deal with grief?

The bike, the gym, and right here. This is my little meditation chair that I sit in and take walks. I think that my car. Any space that feels safe for you to do so, then I do resonate with that idea of physicality while grieving. I’ll bring it up to that. There have been moments in my life where I have had something very acute grief like a loss. I’ve done a movement that has been healing. I felt it transmute that energy into something very positive and uplifting and felt lighter afterward, then my community. I have different communities where I would grieve different things.

Normally, we ask people if they have advice for newbies on the bike but I’m curious. I’m going to pivot. If there was one piece of advice, you could give to people about grief and death, in general. What would that be? One overarching nugget.

Allow it, because we spend so much time pretending that it’s not there and it will come out. If it comes, welcome it because your emotions are there for a reason. They’re to fight. When you integrate them, you become a more powerful person.

I have to share that I’ve been doing EMDR therapy. I got hit by a car.

I was going to say I’m so glad you’re okay.

Thank you for that. I was struggling with being scared all the time in the car. I have found we’ve not only processed that but we’ve been reprocessing some other stuff from my childhood and things like that. It’s fascinating to me because, through the years, I’ve had to be so in control of my life. It didn’t occur to me that I was also trying to be in control every time I was emotional. Sometimes, allowing those emotions to come out also means it’s okay to let yourself cry. You don’t even have to give yourself permission to feel it. It’s also letting out the feeling of it. Sometimes, I didn’t make the connection between those two things. There might be other people out there that don’t. I had to share that.

I love EMDR. I’m glad that you are getting to revisit those things that have been in there. We all have those things. That’s what I was saying in the beginning. I see the way we all have things that we have not addressed. If you need a sign, here’s your sign. You should feel it. You’ll feel better after you feel it. Better is relative. It doesn’t mean it feels good but it means that it’s meant to be felt.

It’s like exercise.

It doesn’t always feel good in that moment but then when you’re done, you always feel better. You feel better for having done it. I’ll put it that way.

There’s a difference between feeling better and feeling all better.

That’s right. I’m curious what your leaderboard name is if you want people to know what your leaderboard name is.

I do but like don’t judge the amount of rides. I know I have space between now and when this airs. I’m going to use that space.

Lots of five-minute classes.

She’s recommitting to the process.

I need the dots. I was so obsessed with those dots when I first got that.

You’ve already said you like the dots close together.

I do like the dots. I like them blue and every day. I got COVID and that’s what knocked me off. I was doing great, then I got COVID. It did get me back on the bike but I’m not back to the FTP I had before then, and it’s been a long day. These Are Days because I love that song.

That’s great.

Before we let you go, where can everybody find you on Instagram? You keep talking about your Instagram but I don’t think you’ve said the handle.

@MourningSpace. You can find me on Instagram.

You mentioned the name of the blog.

MourningSpace.com and @MourningSpace on Instagram. I’m creating a couple of little freebies for my Peloton people. As my mission is to build a community of empowered grievers, I created the #EmpoweredGrievers. If anyone wants to join this community that I’m trying to build, you can use that hashtag. You can check my link in my bio and I’ll have a couple of little things for my Peloton community that I love so much.

That’s nice. Thank you.

Do you know where you would’ve come in handy in the world of Peloton?

Where’s that?

It’s when Daniel McKenna left.

The grieving.

I know it’s a different type of grief but there were lots of people that were very upset.

I’m going to say this. I see a lot of anger in the world over a lot of things. I know that a lot of that root causes grief. A lot of the bad behavior that we see sometimes in the comment section, which I steer clear of, does sometimes have that root in grief. I try to give people grace for that, but that was a really tough time. I understood a loss is a loss. It doesn’t matter if it’s a Peloton instructor, a movie star, or a favorite book. A loss is a loss and it deserves attention.

A loss is a loss and it deserves attention. Share on X

Thank you so much for joining us. This has been fascinating and fun as much as fun as death can be. I’m not trying to be flippant but it was very enjoyable.

I love to, like you don’t expect a death care professional like this is not what’s happening in your mind. It is starting to happen, actually.

That’s wonderful.

Thank you very much.

Thanks for letting me be here. I appreciate it.

I guess that brings this episode to a close. Until next time, where can people find you?

People can find me on Facebook at Facebook.com/crystaldokeefe. They can find me on Instagram, Twitter, Threads, and the Peloton leaderboard @ClipOutCrystal.

You can find me on Twitter @RogerQBert or on Facebook at Facebook.com/tomokeefe. You can find the show online on Facebook.com/TheClipOut. While you’re there, like the page and join the group. Don’t forget, there’s a bonus episode waiting for you over at Patreon.com/TheClipOut. That’s it for this one. Thanks for tuning in. Until next time, keep pedaling and running and rowing.


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