170: All Jennifer Jacobs and Steven Little Classes are Purged plus our interview with Rich Peyton

Last Updated: August 21, 2020By Crystal OKeefe (#ClipOutCrystal)Tags: Bowflex, Diet, Healthy Living, Peloton instructor, Peloton Transformation, Peloton tribe

Another purge has happened – this time focusing on the Jennifer Jacobs and Steven Little catalogs in their entirety.

Peloton UK now offers extended warranties.

Peloton adds (and then deletes) difficulty tags.

John Mills joins us to discuss why Peloton stock prices shot up and Apple’s foray into fitness.

Crystal recaps her marathon experience.

Dr. Jenn Mann – Are you working out too much?

Emma Lovewell signs with UTA.

Popsugar writes about what instructors wear on AND off the bike.

Ben Aldis was featured in Forbes.

Soulcycle and Flywheel co-founder discusses why gyms aren’t going away.

Bike shorts are back.

Peloton adds new badges for the annual challenge.

Strength warm-ups are here.

Ross Rayburn had an IG Live with Billy Porter.

Hannah Frankson launches a 5-part strength series on Vitality UK IGTV.

Jess Sims is partnering with DC’s Education Workforce to do a special professional development on building a thriving online community.

Aditi Shah has a new meditation series.

Alex’s new line of clothes has dropped. (And of course, Crystal bought some.)

Rebecca Kennedy had a birthday.

All this plus our interview with Rich Peyton

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Watch the episode here:

Listen to the podcast here:

All Jennifer Jacobs and Steven Little Classes are Purged plus our interview with Rich Peyton

If we sound a little different this week and we might, we should preface this by saying our computer completely crapped the bed.

We have some very gracious people that you’re going to hear in the upcoming weeks being super patient with our interview snafus.

This week, everything is recording through Zoom, which compresses audio in a way that we don’t normally do, so the quality is better. If this sounds a little different than that, that’s what’s going on. We have a new computer. It’s essentially here, it’s being assembled right now. It should be set up tomorrow. Moving forward, starting next week, it should be back to normal, but we’re just letting people know. We should also point out that the people who have been kind enough over the years to donate money, whether it was a one off or an ongoing thing, this is precisely the sort of things you go to. We don’t know what happened if the thing got hit by lightning or gremlins, but it was like the computer went down, the soundboard went down, so we just scrapped it all. We’re just completely starting over that.

Having said that, I know it sounds like a really expensive thing. You’re like, “You guys just blew all that money.” Let me tell you, our guy, Kevin, he got some excellent deals on some things. I feel good about that.

Because of real spoilers, with the podcasts, the cost gets split because we both share that computer. That helps both shows out. Anyway, to some people that have donated over the years, thank you very much. We appreciate it. This is exactly for times like these that we squirrel that money away. We are nothing, if not squirreling. What pray tell do you have in store for people this week?

We’re going to talk about some big changes that happened this week within the catalog of classes. We’re going to be talking about past instructors, new instructors, some fun things that Peloton added. Then of course, we’re going to give everybody an update on how my marathon, my 26.2 miles went. There are lots of cool stuff that the instructors are up to. We’re going to talk all about that.

Before we get to all that, shameless plugs, don’t forget we’re available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcast, iHeart, TuneIn, wherever you find your podcasts, you can find us. While you’re there, be sure and subscribe so you never miss an episode. If you would be so kind, you could even leave a review. We have a new review. This is from KC McKay. They say, “You guys are awesome. Crystal and Tom, I’ve been meaning to review you for a while, so better late than never. I discovered you around episode #99 trying to get smart about the lawsuit. I then listened to episode #100 as my husband and I drove two hours to take our dog in for ACL surgery. Early on I had the privilege of knowing your back story, which was endearing and which has kept us listening. Last summer just before I hit my two-year Peloversary, on Crystal’s advice, I invoked the warranty. I received my new Gen3 screen the next day. I won’t tell you how long I had been fighting Peloton help about the lags we were experiencing prior to that. You saved me $800, my sanity and brought me back to the bike after a frustrating time. Since then, you have provided concise, well-rounded coverage of all news, while saving me from the OPP. Your listeners appreciate the time you invest in the podcast, and I thank you for juggling it with your very full personal lives. I’ll catch on the leaderboard, KC_McKay.”

Thank you, KC. That’s so sweet. What a nice review. Thank you very much. We’ve got some awesome people in this community.

Also don’t forget. You can find us on Facebook, Facebook.com/TheClipOut. While you’re there, like the page, join the group, it helps to stay up to date, maybe interact with us and other audience. That’s almost always enjoyable. You can watch this in full HD gory if that’s your jam at our YouTube channel, YouTube.com/TheClipOut. While you’re there, also subscribe so whenever a new video gets posted, you get a notification. There’s all of that. Let’s dig in, shall we?

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I was going to hop on the bike this week. I thought I’d start at the beginning with Steven Little ride. What are the odds?

I feel really confident.

Whatever you’re going to say, it wouldn’t be the same. I could get the metrics and it just wouldn’t be the same. All the Steven Little rides and Jennifer Jacobs rides have been purged. There are no more. They are X rides.

I’ve gotten so many questions about this.

What’s the question? They’re gone, but are they really gone? Yes, they’re really gone.

People want to know why because they think it’s all to do with the music. I’m not convinced that it had to do with the music, because if you look at the rides, everything that was prior to 2017 is gone, with a very few exceptions. One of the notable exceptions was the Broadway ride with Robin from 2016. There’s a lot of stuff that got called from every instructor. It just happened to be that they’d also took a bigger bite out of JJ and STL. JJ had more rides beyond 2016. There are also theories that abound about the fact that she just started up with flatter. Maybe that was it. Maybe it was a contractual agreement. None of us know. It also could be that she asked them to take it down. We really don’t know.

I find the music thing hard to believe that it would wipe out their catalogs in its entirety, and not affect other instructors similarly. For whatever reason, they just decided time to get rid of these. It could be a combination of those things. It could also just be that they’re wanting to get rid of the older rides because they don’t like the production quality as much, and they don’t want them out there.

That could be too. For whatever reason, it is officially the end of an era. I was a little sad when I realized that, I’m not going to lie. I love our new instructors and all the instructors we have now. It’s not about that. It’s about that the rides that I took back then, there are all these milestones of things that I did. The very first time we went to New York City, and we weren’t even there for Peloton, which is shocking. We were there for our family. We went to go see the Macy’s Day Parade at Thanksgiving. That was the first time I ever went to Peloton and I rode with STL. That will never be a thing again. It’s just sad. It’s the end of an era. At the same time, Peloton is always changing, always evolving, lots of great things to look forward to. It will be okay.

I think what’s going on is they’re paving the way for their new app, Peloton Classic.

I don’t think that’s going to be a thing.

Jennifer Jacobs though, chimed in.

It was a bit elusive. She tweeted and I didn’t see it anywhere else. I only saw it on Twitter. She tweeted that her bike shoes would not be collecting dust for long. She literally put, “… Stay tuned.” I don’t know what that means. I’m curious. I know the rumors will be a flying.

Peloton announced that bike service plans, AKA extended warranties, will now be available in the UK.

This is a big deal because this is something they’ve been clamoring for a very long time. For a brand new, you can get an additional 12 months of coverage for £145. You can get 27 months of coverage for £185. As they point out in this article, a single service appointment could cost between £95 and £145. One of the things that you’re going to want to pay attention to is when you can last purchase it. In the United States, you can purchase I believe nine months in to your purchase. After nine months, you can go ahead and purchase the extended warranty. You don’t have to purchase it day one, or at least you didn’t use to. My point being, go check it out yourself. Do not listen to what I’m saying that the US does. Go and look it up for your area because I don’t want you to miss out. The thing is that if they do need to replace a screen, if they do need to replace a bike, this extended warranty will cover that.

There are things that aren’t covered. For example, if you add things to your bike that aren’t supposed to be there, that can void your warranty. If you try to change and you flip the screen, that voids your warranty. Don’t do those things. If you do those things, don’t document it on social media. You can go and check out how to initiate a claim. If you’re ever checking out our YouTube, you’ll be able to see this. We wanted to make sure that we made our UK friends aware of this brand-new service that Peloton is providing.

There was an interesting moment this week where difficulty tags were briefly added to classes.

There was a lot of confusion about where these existed. I just want to spell this out. They have existed on the tread almost since day one on tread classes. They exist on the app if you have iOS. Some people said the bike classes, but you couldn’t see it on the bike. This week they added it, but then they had such a wide range of classes that were considered intermediate that really did no good at all. Classes that are insanely hard were rated the same as classes that are not insanely hard. It was like 90% of the classes were intermediate. Then the next day, it all got taken down. We will see, was that some weird glitch and it would never come back? Are they fixing it?

Were they testing it and put it live by accident? I always say all Italians are the same as no Italians.

We’ll see what happens with that. I thought it was pretty funny. It showed up and then it was gone.

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We’re going to do something new this week. We’re going to be joined by someone who talks about Peloton on the internet all the time as well, John Mills from Run, Lift and Live. John, how’s it going?

I’m doing well. How are you both doing?

We’re doing great. Some people might remember you, long time audience might remember you from episode four. We enjoyed it so much, we decided to bring you back 166 episodes after.

I knew it was coming.

We didn’t have the skillset at first, “Let’s do this and add this.”

I’ve heard you guys said that on the show before, I thought it was so professional what you guys did back then. When I got off that, I was like, “They’re really good.”

We tried. Honestly, it came out pretty solid from the start. From what I’ve read, it’s like exercise. The longer you do it, the more you can do.

That’s how exercise should work is what you’re saying. I think that’s how it works.

Over time, it’s gotten much more involved and you guys got cleaner and better at it. I absolutely noticed that. My initial take on that, I was like, “This is some good stuff.”

We’re going to talk about some things going on in the more the business end of Peloton. There was an article from Motley Fool this week, they just go by Fool.com if you’re looking for their URL, about why Peloton stock has jumped.

First of all, generally when I look up information and I get through the Motley Fool, all their articles have some form of Peloton hate. Have you noticed that?

They do. My favorite part about Motley Fool sometimes is I feel like they write two totally different versions of the same article. One pro, one con, and then they throw them both out there and see which gets the most clicks.

To be fair, I think it’s because they’re literally different analysts with different opinions. They’re also from the same place.

Ultimately, the stock jumping, when I initially read it, I thought all that information they’re talking about are things we already know. I knew lower cost treads are coming out. We’ve known that since Jill Woodworth said that months ago, “This COVID thing is going to cause people to work out at home.”

That’s a real shocker.

They said it stifled had up their price target from 62 to 72, but the jump 7%, we’ve heard analysts come out and give their guidance updates over the past year. I’ve never seen that type of a jump in one given day over.

What is going on?

My original thought was there’s just something that I don’t know. You remember back in April 2020 or whenever it was, he writes, “I was just meeting with Peloton and there’s going to be this new bike.”

He put that in there. He just slid it in.

You know how he just slid it in in between a bunch of other stuff? I was thinking, “Was he supposed to say that?” I didn’t know that. That made me get this thought that there’s just some things that maybe we don’t hear or maybe other folks hear that but we just don’t hear. One of the folks in my group, Hubert, he mentioned, “John, I think that was just a gap field.” He looks at like the price targets and how the stock is moving. He saw it as the stock is just hitting a low run, get into the bottom and investors trying to jump in where they thought it hit the bottom of that gap, so that they could ride it back up. He’s probably right. Maybe that’s all it was.

I love the fact that we bring you in for your business expertise. The first piece of phrase that you gave us is, “Maybe there are things I don’t know.”

Run, Lift and Live, you guys know that it’s just me throwing out a bunch of parodies and events, talking about my workout regimen so that folks could help me, motive me to keep doing it. That’s all it was until I invested in September 2019. That mad minds starts colliding with the investor mind and I’m going, “I want to say some stuff now, but I can’t put it in the OPP because they might end up all over me.” The investor mind might be a little more critical. I started doing that stuff on my page hoping that folks would validate what I’m thinking or they would tell me that’s wrong or they would help me. That was the thought.

If it matters at all, I think that what you’re saying is more realistic and here’s why. We know that next stock call is coming up real soon. We also know that they are expected to be announcing some big things very soon. I personally think that your initial reaction is correct. I don’t know what that thing is, but there are some whispers out there on the street and they know that it’s coming.

That’s still in my mind as well. I think that as well. On top of that, we already know that they’re likely going to beat every one of their estimates, the market numbers. They say they have 886,000 subscribers in their Q3 reporting which ended March 31st. They report that on May 6th. A week later they go, “By the way, we’ve got a million now.” If you piece that together between March 31st and May 12th, they gained 114,000 new connected fitness subscribers. There were six more weeks until the end of Q4.

It might be two million by now.

They’re obviously going to be at 1.1 million, 1.2 million and their guidance was 1.05 million. We know they’re going to beat that. It’s going to be good news. I assumed the same people are going to be trying to get in along with the thought that you said like, “We know something’s coming out. Something’s about to come out.” That was my thought as well, but I don’t know.

We’re expecting good news from Peloton, but transitioning to what could be bad news for Peloton, what’s your take on the idea of Apple entering the world of fitness and fitness equipment?

That’s an interesting one for me because ultimately, you’re talking about the Apple one package and the tiered packages of their fitness subscriptions. That’s clearly them trying to make more out of their subscription offerings. They’re lowering the price if you buy it in this bundle than if you subscribe to these things individually. I think that was their ultimate intent. What is it called? I think it’s Apple Virtual Fitness. I think that’s a leap into that. That’s secondary. If you’re long investor on Peloton, you’re probably thinking, “That’s only going to compete against their digital offering,” and it’s a second thought, what is that going to do? For me though, I’m long-ish in that. Ask me tomorrow.

If you’re thinking about it from that perspective, Apple say they now hit a $2 trillion market cap today. They could buy anybody and they can generate news and hype. Even if they’re doing badly with whatever they’re doing, they can generate news and hype. The market reacts on news and hype. If you’re long-ish dish, if you’re short or long-ish, it could affect Peloton stock in the short-term. I’m like, “Will these guys stop?” That’s how I’m seeing it. Whereas if you talked to Mike Kail, he’s truly long. This to him, he’s like, “Wo what?”

I think long-term, Apple’s too late to the game. I know a lot of people are saying like, “When Apple goes after something, they get it.” I’m like, “Really? Name a show on Apple TV.” If hey had a movie from Tom Hanks, can they name it? Maybe a couple people can or some people can’t. I feel like they’re going after Netflix hot and heavy. I don’t feel like they’re even making a dent, not in the pop culture site guys, the way you need to. Hulu has hit shows and Amazon. I don’t feel like Apple’s got any traction here.

Everybody knows I’m an Android girl.

I’m Android as well.

Here’s the thing. How can they compete on the same level as Peloton? Even if they put all their money behind it, unless they bring hardware into this equation, I don’t see it really doing much.

My thought at this point is that they’re not really even trying. There are a lot of slices in this pie and they’re trying to get their little slice out of the subscription fitness. I agree with you there. From my perspective, I think they’re big enough to create enough noise that will create fluctuation.

Stop it, Apple.

When I was a kid, I used to always go down to the playground and play basketball. There was always this one kid that came to play. He didn’t really want to play. He just wanted to bully everybody. You’re like, “Come on.” “That was a foul.” Then when he left, we can all have fun.

Thank you so much for joining us and giving us your insight. Tell people where they can find all your stuff.

You can check out my Run, Lift and Live page or Run Lift and Live Group on Facebook. You can check me out on Instagram, @RunLiftAndLive. I’ve got a one relatively live website as well, you can check that out.

I love your GIFs. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

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Your Quarantread has finished. You finished the Quarantread. I don’t think the Quarantread is quite yet finished with you.

It’s so much better than it was.

That’s not in your head. You had some damage.

I did have some damage. Should I talk about what I went through during?

Maybe a little bit.

Let me just say that about mile 6, I was feeling really good. I was like, “This is great. This is no problem at all. I got this.” Something happened right around mile 10. I started to be like, “I’m getting tired,” and my heart rate wasn’t staying down. I wanted it to stay in zone two the entire time. Mile 14 is when I started experiencing a sharp pain in my right foot and couldn’t figure out why. Then I took my shoe off and I found out that my foot had indeed exploded.

You had a huge blister.

I am not even exaggerating for people watching the YouTube. It was legit that big.

Also, we posted pictures at our Facebook group. It was bad. That is not you being a wuss.

At that point, honestly, if I had not publicly told people I was doing this, I’m pretty sure I would have stopped.

Half marathon is good too. I totally get that. Brian and I ran up to the store and braved the COVID and ran up to Walgreens. We got you mole skin, something for blisters and then NEOSPORIN with pain reliever.

You also handed me some Advil. Then I got back on the tread and I finished it. I didn’t pee again after that. I was afraid to get off the tread. I was afraid that if I stopped, that I wasn’t going to get back on. The last 10 miles, I just had willed myself through and I did. It was not impressive for anybody who cares about time. It was the saddest marathon time probably ever recorded.

You did it. We were waiting for you when you were done, we had a finish line for you.

It was great. It was a toilet paper, finish line.

I figured my thought process there was if you still have the strength to break through it. That you would be so tired, if I want something stronger, you get stuck. I was trying to set you up to win and then we had a beer waiting for you. Then we ordered frozen custard and had it delivered to the house.

It was wonderful. Then the next day, I could barely move. That night even, it hurt really bad. The next day, I pretty much did not move unless I had to. I’m pretty sure that the blister on my right heel got infected yesterday and it was really gross. Nobody needs to see pictures of that. I had to peel off the bandage, which was like peeling off glue. Then I put a completely different setup on it that Tom helped me with. He’s been super helpful. You and Brian were supportive and so many people in the community. I am amazed 26 miles, 8 hours from 8:00 AM to 4:00 PM our time, I was never alone on that leaderboard. There was never one time that I was alone. A special shout-out to Mel Edwards who was on there, Shelly Gherkin, who’s on there. Susan from Texas. I know I’m forgetting people. Then of course, Leslie LeDonne, it was all her idea. She was on there all day. She got done in two hours. She was like, “No big deal.” This is the second time she’s done it this month. It was a crazy day. I’m very proud of myself that I did it. For all of you saying, “When are you going to sign up for an actual outdoor marathon?” I don’t know that I ever will. I don’t know why you guys do this to yourself. That was pretty intense. It was an awesome experience to be able to say I did it.

Watch this space for Quarantread 2021. Are you going to make it an annual event?

I don’t know. I would need something bigger than Andy’s at the end.

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Back again is Dr. Jenn Mann, a licensed marriage, family and child therapist, sports psychology consultant. You may know her from VH1’s Couples Therapy with Dr. Jenn or VH1’s Family Therapy with Dr. Jenn or her long running radio show, The Dr. Jenn Show. She’s written four bestselling books including The Relationship Fix: Dr. Jenn’s 6-Step Guide to Improving Communication, Connection & Intimacy. You might also know her from The Clip Out, Dr. Jenn.

It’s good to have you back.

It’s always great to be here.

Last time, we talked about people like me, who don’t work out at all. Now, segue away from that, please. We thought we’d talk about how do you know if maybe you’re working out too much? Obviously, working out is a goal I’ve been told, and a good thing, but you can do good things too much sometimes. How do you know where that line is?

There are a few significant red flags. If you are not tending to business, whether it is assignments for work or taking care of your kids or taking care of your relationship, or any responsibility you have because you’re busy working out and you are working out for long periods of time in a given day. It’s not that you’re like, “I’m going to do a ten-minute apps class. My kids can wait 10 minutes.” I’m talking about you’re working out for an hour and a half while your baby is screaming and crying, we have a problem. If people in your life are coming to you and saying like, “This feels a little excessive. It feels like you’re never around,” and it’s not just one person, but you’re getting the feedback from multiple places that you’re MIA in your family, in your relationships, that’s a sign.

Also injuries. Your body will tell you if you are finding yourself frequently getting injured, it’s a sign that you’re overtraining. Also, if you’re finding that you are obsessing about your workout. As someone who’s recovered from an eating disorder, I was not well for about ten years. At the time, even if I wasn’t thinking about food or exercise, it was a constant background noise in the back of my head that I could be carrying on a conversation, at the same time in the back of my mind, thinking about the exercise I needed to do, what I was going to do next, how much I had, how much I hadn’t done, all that stuff. If you find that you’ve got that obsessive tape going through your head, that’s a red flag that you’re not in a healthy place with your relationship to exercise and/or your body.

For lack of a better comparison or word, if you were to view it through the prism of an addiction, how do you determine what’s appropriate? If you’re drinking too much, if you’re on drugs, it’s very binary. With something like exercise or food if it’s eating, how do you integrate that into your life in a way that’s healthy, but doesn’t spin out of control for you?

If you’re getting tip-offs like any one of those things that I just named, if you’re getting feedback or you’re having those experiences and you go, “She just named that list. That’s me. I really identify with a bunch of those things.” The thing to do is to get help from an outside source. You need a neutral party, whether it is your general practitioner to say like, “What is a healthy amount of exercise for me to do? This is what I’m doing.” To have someone who is neutral and is invested in your wellbeing and also knowledgeable about medicine and/or psychology, to be able to say like, “Here’s what I recommend for you. Don’t exceed an hour a day, however many days a week,” or whatever your doctor says is you need to then listen to that.

Also to note, what is your reaction when that person says that? If you feel panic, if you feel anxiety, if you feel a lot of feelings bubbling to the surface, then that’s a therapy issue. That’s something that needs to be dealt with in therapy. In times like this, we’re in a pandemic, we have many problems with injustice and race and conflict, unemployment. It’s such a high conflict, stressful time. A lot of people are turning to activities or substances to deal with their feelings, some in healthy ways and some in very unhealthy ways. This is an eating disorder example because there’s a fine line between excessive exercise and eating disorder behavior. I remember one time in a therapy session talking to a client of mine who was obsessing about food and her weight and exercise. I said to her, “If you weren’t obsessing about these things right now, what would you be obsessing about?” I’ll never forget you look to me and said, “I’d be obsessing about killing myself.” I said, “Let’s talk about what’s underneath that.”

We have a tendency to use substances and activities to avoid thinking or feeling pain, even when they cause us pain. I know when I was eating disordered, it was easier for me. It was incredibly painful and I suffered enormously obsessing about food and my body and this and that, but that pain was easier than dealing with the pain of what was underneath it. In order to recover, I had to deal with the underlying issues, and that allowed the eating disorder to ultimately dissipate along with a lot of choices I had to change in my life that needed to be healthier, more well-balanced in terms of my relationship with food. When we are doing something excessively or compulsively, it’s the red flag. It’s the sign that there’s something else deeper going on that is causing us pain that we need to deal with.

That’s a really good reminder.

It’s a lot to take in.

I think of it like anger is a smokescreen emotion. I’m using that in my mind as an equation. If you’re feeling anxiety about how often when somebody says, “You might want to slow down,” then there’s some other stuff underneath there.

That’s a great analogy because anger is a secondary emotion. There’s always something underneath it. With compulsive activity, there’s always something underneath it.

Thank you so much for taking time to join us. Until next time, where can people find you?

People can find me on all my social media, @DrJennMann and my InStyle Magazine column, Hump Day with Dr. Jenn, and on my website, DoctorJenn.com.

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Deadline.com reports that Emma Lovewell has signed with UTA, which is a big deal. For people that don’t know, UTA is a big time Hollywood agency that represents lots of big-name musical acts and actors and whatnot.

Give us an example.

I don’t remember off the top of my head. I know that most of the UTA actors are so big that when I’m looking to book bands, they don’t return my phone calls. I don’t deal with UTA all that much because from where I work, it isn’t that important. UTA is a very significant agency. That’s a big deal.

I thought it was interesting that it said that it was going to refer her in all areas, including digital content, endorsements, publishing and podcasting. I thought it was interesting that it got thrown in there.

It’s hard to say if she’s actually plotting a podcast of some sort, or if it’s just something that they throw in everything now. It’s becoming such a natural brand extension for people that they might just throw it and in that way, she doesn’t go off and do a podcast and they’re left out of that deal as well. It’s probably like a 360 deal where basically anything she does, they’re getting a piece of.

The other interesting thing about this is that she’s been at Peloton for the past three years. Do you remember when we interviewed her as a brand-new instructor?

I do.

That was three years ago. We have been doing this podcast, we have all of the history here. That’s crazy. It talks about that she’s from a dance background and she’s also sponsored an Under Armour ambassador and has appeared in national ad campaigns for Target, JC Penny, Garnier and Athleta. I have no doubt that she will continue to be huge news. We’re going to see her in a lot of places. I think this changes a lot of things.

I think you’re going to see more and more Peloton instructors signing deals like this.

It’s pretty cool.

Popsugar had a pretty fun article about what instructors were on and off the bike and/or tread. I’ve got to throw that out there. I don’t want the tread to get mad at me.

Did you happen to read this one?

I didn’t read it, but I scrolled through some of the pictures.

Anything of note?

It was all just girl clothes. I’m like, “That’s more girl clothes.”

I thought it was interesting because the person who wrote this had the same kind of questions that I have. Do they work with the Peloton stylists? Do they tell them? Is there somebody that’s like, “This bra goes really well with these leggings?” This person went through the same kind of questions that I did. I love that they’re like, “Rebecca Kennedy has so many metallic leggings. Where does she keep them all?” She got to talk to Robin, Ally, Olivia, Jess Sims, Rebecca Kennedy and Becs Gentry, who everybody confirmed that they all have free reign. “They have to wear at least one Peloton branded article of clothing, ‘but they encourage us to be authentic to ourselves and do as we want.’ ‘I love cropping tanks, cutting sleeves off tees, making capris into bike shorts and layering sports bra.’ Jess Sims told me about her personal style, but all six women got even more personal than that. It’s cool. We sweat together and dished on their all-time favorite moments along with details about their personal style. I know you won’t be mad when I ask them to name their favorite training shoes, what you thought I’d leave you hanging.” Then they did leave us hanging. That’s really cool though. I like hearing that because that is what I have heard through the grapevine. I love hearing that it confirms that they have to wear one thing Peloton and then they can do whatever they want. It’s crazy because they alter the tank tops and stuff like that.

You can find all of this at Popsugar.com. Ben Aldis was featured in Forbes magazine.

Is there like a separate UK Forbes or something?

I don’t think so. This website is just Forbes.com. It’s not like Forbes.com.uk. I think it’s just regular old Forbes.

I thought it was cool because they talked about his financial background before he started with Peloton. I love reading about where the instructors were before they came to Peloton, because everybody’s got a story. Not everybody is like, “I would like to be a professional athlete.”

Also like Peloton is so new, it’s not like anybody grew up thinking, “I want to be a Peloton instructor.” Anybody at the moment that becomes a Peloton instructor by virtue of definition, they fell into it, not to say they fell into fitness necessarily or being a fitness instructor. It couldn’t have been your goal until relatively recently. There are many people funneling in from different areas. It’s fascinating.

I remember when we interviewed Ben and Leanne, he talked about this too. It’s just nice to hear from another perspective. He had always been fit and he’d always played in team sports. He was actually teaching classes at a boutique studio in his very limited spare time. He was teaching two classes, three days a week, and then he would go to the office, and then he would also teach on weekends. That’s crazy and dedication.

It’s also seems like there’s a disproportionate number of instructors who came to Peloton through the world of finance.

There’s Matt Wilpers.

I feel like we interviewed a female instructor who also came from finance, but it all blurs together.

I don’t remember that one

It does seem like there are a lot of finance connections.

The corporate world, for sure.

One of the founders of SoulCycle and Flywheel was on a show talking about her thoughts about how gyms will do in this new world in which we find ourselves.

It was CNBC. It was Ruth Zukerman. For those that know, she’s the Cofounder of SoulCycle and Flywheel. She started off at one and went to the other. Then she came on Squawk On The Street and she talked about virtual workouts and how the pandemic is going to solidify the approach long-term.

Her take was she thought that gyms are going to be okay, that they’re going to peacefully coexist.

I thought that was interesting. A lot of the feedback I got right away was, “She’s just trying to sell something.”

I got the same vibe when I watched it. It’s like she wants that to be true. I don’t think gyms are going to completely go away. There are certainly going to be some people that either don’t have the upfront cost for something like this, or they do want a variety that a gym can offer and they don’t want to have to buy multiple pieces of equipment.

They may also not have space or maybe they move a lot.

Some people just enjoy the ritual, the routine of going to the gym, like that’s part of the experience for them. I don’t think we’re going to see a world where there’s never any more gyms, but I certainly think you’re going to see one hell of a contraction.

I do too. I think it’s going to be this gym buying that gym. You’re going to see that huge cycle where everything starts to collapse in on itself. Probably, we’re going to continue to see new things be created. Who knows what that will end up being?

I do think it’s a little Pollyanna to be like, “It will be okay.”

I included it because of who she is. It’s very interesting.

Obviously, she’s a mover and shaker in that world that her opinion is to be valued. I find it hard to believe that it would be true.

It’s very interesting. We will have to see.

On the heels of that talking about gym versus at-home stuff, it’s not just Peloton anymore. Tonal is out there as well. It’s a great compliment to a Peloton.

You can’t beat Peloton for cardio. I also don’t think you can beat Tonal for strength. The programs that they have put together and the way that you don’t have to think about what you’re doing next, the weights you’re going to use. It’s so natural and easy.

You don’t have to remember what moves you’re going to do, but you also don’t have to remember what your weights are for each move. It’s going to do all that for you. It’s going to slowly stair-step you up the ladder. It’s just one pound at a time so you don’t feel overwhelmed. It’s going to do it all. You’re not even going to notice that it’s happening.

They have some really cool new things that they’ve added. They’ve added a form feedback in the last couple of weeks. It’s been about a month. That is amazing because you don’t have to be right in front of the camera. It’s not using the camera. The sensors are in the weights and the arms and it knows how you’re using it. It can tell and it will correct you if you’re not doing the correct form. The other cool thing that they’ve added is someday they are going to add that camera feature. For those of you who are triathletes, they have an entire triathlete program that they just added. They have two of them, one that’s all about endurance and one that’s all about power. The cool thing about that is that they used one of the most famous guys in the triathlon community. He is a six-time world champion of triathlon. He’s a guest instructor. That’s just really cool. They are so great about listening to what people want and bringing it in. This is a great example of that.

Not only is it like having your own personal trainer, it’s like having your own world expert personal trainer.

You’re getting the best of the best.

It’s a smart at-home gym that replaces every machine in the weight room. You can try Tonal for 30 days risk-free. If you go to www.Tonal.com, you get $100 off smart accessories when you use the promo code, The Clip Out, at checkout.

That’s Tonal, be your strongest.

Peloton added new badges this week for the annual challenge.

It’s really cool. At the beginning of this year when they added these, the top number that you could get was 5,000 minutes. They have now added a 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10, so your top badge is now 10,000 minutes.

That’s almost double.

I think it’s hilarious that instantaneously there were a lot of people complaining that it wasn’t enough. I don’t have that problem.

Hannah Frankson will be in Vitality UK IGTV doing a five-part strength series.

It starts today. It’s an interesting collaboration because it’s with an insurance company out of the UK. Also interesting and of significant note is that this is the first time we’ve seen a strength program come out of the UK. Even though it’s not on Peloton per se, I think we are gearing up to that particularly because what also dropped this week are the strength warmups.

It seems to be that if you’re warming up for strength, then you need the actual strength to go on with that.

Those strength warmups are all across the world. They’re not just in the UK. They’re adding the warmups for the content that already exists. It’s still of note because I feel like this signifies that this signals to everyone, that Peloton is about to do something big with strength. All of a sudden, we have warmups. All of a sudden, we have Hannah Frankson doing this five-part series. I’ve been hearing that there are a lot of surveys going around in the background to Peloton members about strength. Stay tuned because I think there’s more coming.

Watch this space. There’s a lot of watching spaces this week. Ross Rayburn is doing Instagram Live with Billy Porter.

It was today and it was pretty cool. Billy Porter, if you haven’t heard of him is an amazing artist. Um, What are the four big awards that you can win?

Emmy, Grammy, Oscar and Tony.

He only hasn’t gotten one of those. I had no idea that Ross Rayburn knows Billy Porter in real life. They just slid that in during the talk. At one point, they were hanging out. Also Billy Porter, what a personable guy. He was talking about how he feels about the state of the world today. He was very open. He uses yoga to deal with those feelings. He’s been using it a lot. I believe a paraphrased quote was that if he had not been doing yoga in the last several months, he literally would have exploded. The rage that he feels is so intense. I can identify with that. I thought it was really cool, nice conversation between those guys. If you missed it, try to go check it out. It might still be up there for a couple of days. Keep an eye on our channels because we try to always bring you this information so you can watch it live.

Jess Sims is teaming up with DC’s Education Workforce.

They’re going to do a special professional development, all about building a thriving community online because all of the teachers are going back to school and they’re going to be virtual. I thought what a great way to do that because Jess Sims, talking about backgrounds and where Peloton instructors come from, used to be a teacher. She used to be a school principal. She often teaches the fitness for families. This is a perfect fit for her.

Aditi Shah has a new meditation basic series.

It’s all about if you’re brand new to meditation, here’s how you do it. There are little snippets. It helps you get started and not be overwhelmed. A lot of people that want to try meditation are overwhelmed because they think it’s got to be done a certain way, and it doesn’t need to be done a certain way. She’s going to walk you through all of that.

We talked about this last week, but Alex Toussaint’s new line is here, and your stuff arrived, shocking.

I love it. It’s awesome. He even includes a little postcard with his little signature on it. It’s a pledge that we’re all going to do better. I will keep my pledge, Alex.

—

Rebecca Kennedy had a birthday on the 13th. By the time this airs, there will have been 2 or 3 important Peloton birthdays. Former instructor, Nicole Meline, had a birthday on the 17th. Jill Foley’s birthday is on the 20th, which is the second most important Peloton-related birthday on August 20th. August 20th is your birthday. Getting out in front of things, if you want to get your keyboard ready to send birthday wishes to Aditi Shah on the 24th.

There are lots of Leos in the Peloton world. It’s awesome.

—

Joining us on this episode is Rich Peyton. How is it going, Rich?

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for joining us. How did you originally find Peloton?

I was massively out of shape and in my prior life, prior to a couple of injuries, I was a CrossFitter and I had no desire to go back to the gym after I recovered from my injuries. I started looking for something a little more low-impact on my knees and back. I came across Peloton. I talked to a couple of friends who already had bikes. I was extremely lucky to be able to test out the bike from a couple of folks that I know. The next thing I knew, I had a bike, the app and I was sweating on my floor.

How long ago was that?

I started officially on January 1, 2020, but I received my bike on December 18, 2019, and it started from there.

I thought when I read your post that you don’t have a bike. I must’ve totally misread that. You do have a bike?

I do. A funny story about that. I am a classic cheapskate. I got a bike from Amazon. I did the whole Peloton hack. Those of you who are app riders, who have done their research has found there are one billion different bikes, but I wanted to be as close to the Peloton as I could and not spend a ton of money. I found a bike on Amazon. On April 18, 2020, I was doing a 60-minute ride, the bearings and the bike exploded. I nearly bought a Peloton that night. I was disgusted and off myself with anger because I called. The company in question, they said that the bearings weren’t part of my warranty. I would have to have them replaced myself.

They informed me and I immediately hung up the phone. My wife talked me down. She pulled me off the ceiling. We loaded up the dog, took a long walk, talked about it and when we got back, I started doing research again. I nearly bought a Peloton and the bike I came to, that I have now, and that I’ll have for the foreseeable future. It’s a rock-solid bike is the Bowflex C6. It’s a very popular bike amongst app riders in terms of performance, cadence, quietness, and the way that the bike performs. It’s on par with the Peloton bike. I paid about a thousand dollars for the bike. I’m still buying both bikes. I’m a little less than what I would have bought a Peloton for my trouble, I would much rather have a Peloton sitting downstairs.

In a way, your advice, if someone’s in a similar situation, is to start with the Bowflex or is it, “Don’t do what I do and buy the Peloton?”

I love the way that the Bowflex feels, the fact that you save about $1,300 on it is a real value point. If you have the income to do so, absolutely buy the Peloton. Think of it as the Bowflex on steroids, because as far as rideability, both bikes are spot on. The seats are almost identical, you could sit the frames beside one another and aside from the belt cover, you wouldn’t know which frame was which if you debadge both. Other than the big gigantic screen and all the telemetrics, it stands right up, but I like those telemetrics and I’m an athlete. I played baseball all the way up to college and being able to push myself via numbers is great, but I found a couple of ways around that.

I’ve heard that people do that with other bikes. There are all kinds of different formulas out there that people even have. If you have X-Bike and Peloton calls out 60 resistance, you can then convert it over to whatever resistance on whatever bike that you’re using. Do you find that that’s helpful?

With the Schwinn IC4 and the, think of it as Chevy and Cadillac. Essentially, the same bike. The Bowflex tends to have a little better-quality component. Those two bikes are very popular and there’s a seller on Etsy that does a premade conversion chart that’s 3D printed on a piece of a nice black and red plastic. It matches up with your bike. It is made to specifically go right below where your tablet goes. You can adjust your resistance. As an example, a 30 on Peloton is only a nine on Bowflex. Bowflex tends to go a little harder on the upper end of the spectrum. They skew it down. It’s nice to not have to do any math while I’m sweating and dying. I can glance down at my chart and be good.

You have this chart that you’re able to use. I know that you can’t see it on the screen, so that’s going to be a different experience. You can’t see the Peloton metrics in the same way. Do you still feel like you’re getting what you want out of it? I know metrics aren’t important for everybody in the same way.

I should probably go a little deeper into it. The Bowflex bike is a Bluetooth compatible bike, so I can connect my iPad to the bike itself. It will read my cadence, my heart rate connects via my Apple watch and there is a secondary app. If you have an iPad Pro, you can run two apps at the same time and you can run a secondary app that shows your power. I still have all of my metrics that I would get off a Peloton bike. It all be it between two applications. I still have all of the telemetrics that I’m looking for on the Peloton. As I said before, though it’s nice to have it all on one big screen and not have to run a couple of different apps, it’s a great solution for those folks who would rather pay the $12 a month rather than the $39. For those folks who don’t want to invest the $2,300 even though it’s well worth it.

Does the Bowflex have any content or is it just a bike?

They marketed their bike to be a multi-platform bike, so you can use it with other apps like Sufferfest. Sufferfest is one of my favorite non-Peloton apps for those folks who spin. It’s a great app. You can do either guided or non-guided classes, which is great. They give you queues. Zwift is an animated bike racing application. Bowflex has its own app called Explore the World, you get a little bit of free content and then there’s a paywall. The value for performance that Peloton has given me since day one and it’s been able to fuel the transformation that I’ve been able to make with myself. I’m loyal to Peloton.

Tell us about your transformation.

The way that the Southern family operates, someone in my family more or less told me that I was getting fat. I had gained some weight. Life happens, work happens. We all know that those things happen. I was happy, but physically I was not in good shape. I didn’t think too much of it. A lot of that stuff off my back. I go to the doctor for my six-month checkup in late December 2019 and I’m told that I’m prehypertensive for the first time in my life. I’ve dodged bullets my entire life. I have a history of heart problems in my family.

I wanted to be around for my wife and my family for as long as humanly possible. It was a wakeup call. Prior to getting bigger, I was a CrossFitter. I was fit and had some injuries. I’m not disparaging CrossFit, it’s a great sport. I wore my body out, plain and simple. I started on this whole Peloton journey, and it’s been 5 to 6 days a week. I don’t go any longer than 60 minutes. It’s usually a hard 30 to 60 minutes sprint. I burn as many calories as I can. I picked up intermittent fasting. My physician and I talked about a heart-healthy diet and limiting my calories along with intermittent fasting. I’m rolling up on 70 pounds, lost in about six months.

What’s your structure for the intermittent fasting?

It’s a 16/8. I start eating at 12:00 PM. I try to keep it somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,650 calories for now. Once I hit a target weight, I’m going to adjust that up to 1,775 is what we agreed upon. I can still have a slice of pizza or a burger which is great. I went Paleo for a while. It didn’t work for me. My body operates a lot better with a little bit of carbs, more fat than carbs and a medium amount of protein. I’m a shorter kind of squat dude. I tend to hold muscle mass no matter what I do. I don’t need a ton of protein to keep that muscle mass, but I’ve got to have a few carbs.

With your Peloton, are you riding the bike all the time? Is that the only activity that you’re using from Peloton or you are doing other things?

I’m doing some stretching. I’m doing a little bit of yoga. I have been a Pro Wrestling fan since I was a child. I picked up DDP Yoga many years ago to keep myself moving around and limber. I do a lot of that work and I do some Peloton yoga as well, stretching and meditation. The meditation is the second favorite thing that I have in that Peloton app. I love all those meditation classes. Denis is my jam. I do use it, but there are a couple of different things that I do.

What is DDP Yoga?

It used to be called Yoga for Real Guys. There was a former pro wrestler who took it over and basically made it. I’ve done hot yoga and traditional yoga before. This is more power yoga. The movements are a little bit more dynamic and not so much deliberate and slow-moving. It’s a focus on keeping tension in your muscles. The latter part of the classes is centered around your stretching and ensuring that you’re at the center with yourself.

Who is the wrestler that took it over?

Diamond Dallas Page.

On my other podcasts, one of the guys on the show is the world’s biggest wrestling fan. The way I am with the monkeys, he is with wrestling. In fact, we have the sound effect because whenever he mentions wrestling within the podcast, because he can’t not bring up wrestling at some point. We could talk about Schindler’s List and he will somehow make a reference to wrestling.

DDP is a great guy. He’s one of the most positively affirming people that are out there. It’s addictive to listen to him. He’s a hugely positive person and a wrestling fan or not, you’re better for listening to the things that DDP has to say.

If you’re going to make it in wrestling, you have to have a big personality. It doesn’t mean you necessarily have a nice personality, but you’ve got to have a big one. If he’s nice that he’s going to be epically nice.

As far as Peloton goes, do you have a favorite instructor that you ride with?

That’s definitely a three-way tie. All for different reasons. Alex reminds me of a whole lot of my CrossFit family. The coaches at CrossFit. I feel at home with Alex. Kendall, for her intensity. I can never not get a great burn with Kendall. Denis, because he has the ability to put together the absolute best playlist on the face of the planet.

He does have some great playlists. I love his depth and breadth of music choices.

I’m super eclectic when it comes to music and he and I are kindred spirits there.

In our interview with him, he gets deep when he talks about stuff. He talked about some of his favorite books and he talked about how his mom is an English professor. It’s an interesting conversation. You get a whole different side of Denis that does not come through on the bike that might be of interest to you.

He seems to be the most eclectic and interesting person out of that group of instructors. He’s probably the one that I would want to meet most.

What about the groups? I know you mentioned the Peloton app group, is that the one you’re most active in, or are you active in some of the other groups?

Definitely the Peloton app group. I posted a progress picture that I had no idea it would blow up like it did. It got 3,000 plus likes. I’m not huge on social media. I’ve posted my progress pictures on my Instagram, but for the most part, I’m not a huge social media person. I posted a progress picture and I got a gigantic response. We have a Bowflex and non-Peloton bike app riders Facebook group that I’m active in. The actual Peloton SweaxySwarm, I’m active in that one, but the main is the App Riders.

What’s your leaderboard name?

My leaderboard name is the same as the rest of my social and it’s TheLameBear. One of my very good friends is a CrossFit coach down in Winchester, Kentucky. I was the bear and he was the Sasquatch. It came out of one of the coach’s mouths during a workout and it stuck. Shortly after that, I injured myself and I was the lame bear. That was how it came to pass. Feel free to add me on the leaderboard, folks. I always add back.

What about anybody else in your household? Does anybody else do any of the Peloton classes?

My wife picked it up with me. She was fit already.

Did you plug her leaderboard name or did she not?

She’s on the leaderboard. She’s WeirdLittleBeast.

Is there a story behind that as well?

She loves movies. We are horror movie fans. That was one of the reasons that my wife and I clicked when we started dating. On my Instagram, most of my progress pictures are upstairs in front of a mirror. There’s a picture right over my shoulder that she painted of Ted Bundy. We embrace horror in this house. It’s a horror theme name that she liked and she went with it.

Does she do anything besides the bike as well, or does she stick with the bike classes?

She’s incredibly fit. She does her own thing. She keeps herself in great shape and she’s proud of it.

What is your favorite horror movie or franchise?

My personal favorite is a Nightmare on Elm Street series. It’s very nostalgic. It’s the first horror movie that I remember watching and I can even remember where I was when I saw Nightmare on Elm Street part one. That’s for me and she’s a huge fan of the Halloween series. She doesn’t like Halloween 3. I love Halloween 3.

He wanted Halloween 3 to be Halloween 2. His idea was the franchise was going to be an anthology series and there would be a ton of movies, but they all revolved around Halloween. They make Halloween 2 a direct sequel and then by the third one, he could make his anthology thing. People were like, “What are you doing? There’s no Michael Myers. There’s nobody with a knife.”

If they had branded that movie anything else, it would have been a great ‘80s horror film, and people wouldn’t hate on it.

He is not wrong. We did a full episode on real spoiler for Halloween 3. She liked the Halloween, the one that they did where they jettisoned everything and said 40 years later, it’s a sequel. Everything else, it didn’t happen.

We watched it with a fresh perspective. I thought it was well done in bringing Jamie Lee Curtis back. If you watch it with a fresh perspective, it’s a fantastic movie. If you try to put it in canon, I’m not so sure it works.

The thing I liked about it is it did something I’ve never seen a horror movie do, which is in horror movies, the killer running around. He’s still stabbing, everybody’s killing everybody and then at the end, in these movies, there’s what they call the “Final girl and the girl that gets away.” That final girl is like, “I beat the monster. I won,” and they freeze frame and everybody’s happy. It’s like, “You’re not happy. You watched all of your friends get brutally murdered. You wouldn’t be happy to be alive, but you would be traumatized by that.” The way they had attacked the story, no pun intended, in the Halloween sequel that came out in 2018, what would Jamie Lee Curtis’ character be like, if she went through something like that? How would that truly impact her? I thought it was a great take on that.

What would your advice be for somebody getting started? Before you answer, I want to specifically point out that you went through a major change in a very short time period. How realistic is that for the average person, because you are committed to make that happen?

I’ll tell your readers what I told to my brother and that is, you have to have a driving force behind how you make your change. My wife and I don’t have kids. We don’t plan on having kids, but not being around to get old with her, it scared the bejesus out of me. She’s younger than me. I resolved in that moment to be consistent and consistency is king. There is no magic pill. There’s not a magic shake. Get your ass out of bed. Live your life at full throttle, as best as you can. When you have the opportunity to better yourself, take the opportunity. For me, it’s consistency. My best friend, we’re still best friends from high school all the way up until now. He was one of the Peloton owners that I was lucky enough to test the bike out on and he’s fallen off. I’ve more than doubled his amount of rides now. Were on the golf course and he asked me, “You are tiny.”

I have dropped a bunch of weight and a bunch of clothes sizes. He said, “You’ve completely 180-ed yourself. How are you staying with this?” I was like, “We played baseball and football together. You know what you need to do. Be consistent day after day.” That’s the way I’ve looked at everything. When it comes to workouts, when it comes to the way that I eat, I sat down with a client and I went out to lunch that I want to do something not so healthy, I did. In the grand scheme of things, that bacon cheeseburger, that I could have ordered now, will hinder my performance tomorrow. That’s the best advice that I could give someone who’s getting into it. You’re going to run into stumbling blocks and you’re going to feel like a jerk. You’re going to feel bad. There is another side to that. You do get through to the other side.

I tell Crystal that sometimes when she’s like, “I don’t feel like my workout was that good.” I’m like, “Those are probably the most important ones.”

When you don’t feel like getting on the bike or you don’t feel like hitting the floor, the days that you don’t want to pick up the bar are the days that you’re going to make the most change in yourself because you’re resolving to be better. You know you need to, not because you want to.

Where can people find you on social media?

You can find me @TheLameBear on Instagram and Rich Peyton on Facebook. If you’ll shoot me a message and tell me that you read the blog, I’ll be glad to accept you as a friend and answer any questions that you may have. I’ve answered a million and one questions from the various Facebook groups that I’m active in. If I can help one person, I’m beyond happy about it.

What’s your podcast?

I have a little car group down here in Huntington, West Virginia called Project Midnight. We’re a car club promoting positivity and inclusiveness within the car scene. You can find us at The P12 Podcast on YouTube. We don’t do anything audio only because our audience requested that we do YouTube only and that’s what we did.

Is it any particular car or is it all cars?

All cars.

Thank you for taking the time to join us. We appreciate it.

Thank you for having me.

—

That brings this episode to an end. What pray tell do you have in store for people next week?

We are going to talk to Debra Anzalone. Very interesting life that she has led, lots of moving, lots of fitness. It’s been literally a life saver for her. She’s one of the comeback recipients of the Peloton bike.

Until next week, where can people find you?

People can find me at Facebook.com/CrystalDOKeefe. They can find me on Instagram, Twitter, on the Bike and of course the Tread, @ClipOutCrystal.

You can find me on Twitter, @RogerQBert or on Facebook at Facebook.com/TomOKeefe. You can find the show online at Facebook.com/TheClipOut. While you’re there, like the page, join the group. Wherever you get the show from, be sure to subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. Don’t forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel, YouTube.com/TheClipOut, where you can watch entire episodes in their entirety. That’s it for this one. Thanks for tuning in. Until next time, keep pedaling and running.